Been reading up on a gentleman named Harry Ricardo, good stuff, I wondered if some kind of precombustion could be practical with this type of engine "don't plan on using it, just spitballin here" the stock manifold works by heating up and causing the gas to more finely mix with the air, so I thought that It might be interesting to make sort of a modified swirl chamber in the intake manifold, or perhaps even in the head "granted if there is some room, someone suggested modifying it to run on diesel, and if that could be the case, then Indirect injection by Swirl chamber would definitely be the way to go. http://www.scribd.com/doc/22469332/The-High-Speed-Internal-Combustion-Engine-Ricardo-1931 one of his books is here
3LAR, we are deploying late this year, and I'm sure you understand my security in not telling you exactly when, even if I did know. I'm a 2844, I fix radio systems mostly, but I do so much more than that, I frwequently fix guys PSP's X-Box's PS3's etc, when they break down, as well as other stuff, I am a range coach and also a Machine gun instructor, just PCA'd from MCCES where I taught for almost three years, good gig.
as for swapping the motor..... well I keep mulling about it in my mind, just that I am a bit old fashioned like that, this engine/boat anchor will stay in the car...... this time
I also read one of Harrys books from when he was working with White motors. Put it to use when I made the head for my Plymouth four cylinder. Seemed to work OK. I don't know much on this subject but it has always seemed to me that a Diesel flathead is an impossablity because of the inability of getting a combustion chamber small enough to acomplish the compression ratio required. Also there is no way the Plymouth six crank support will stand up to the stress of a Diesel. Just off the top of my head. Never tried it. Don't really know.
Well, an engine girdle for the mains would probably work wouldn't it? hold the crank in there nice and tight, the challenge would be forced induction, centrifugal style supercharger? a turbo wouldn't work, just heat up the water jacket and cause the engine to overheat, I have seen some turbo setups where the turbo has been relocated to a little further down the exhaust line. Is it possible to remove the combustion chamber and still have enough material left to be strong to withstand combustion? Never seen a cross section of a flathead so dunno. where can material be removed? if at all, sounds like a custom machined head from an alloy other than al. There is also the advancement of stratified charge which could prove to be quite useful to mke more power and economy of an engine of this age and design. There are also cerami swirl chamber pioneered by Toyota, and the math involved with the combustion chamber size/ static comp ratio=size of the precup. Or something along those lines. still working on finding an engineer/old-time rthat can explain the idi combustion process fully to me so that I can figure out a way t omake a more efficient one
The hang up is the area over the valves and between the valves and the cylinder. You got to have those with a flathead and that limits you to a CR of around 9 to 1. For auto ignition such as a diesel you need around 17 or 18 to 1. How you going to do that?
Specs for your CAD machine: 1.0001, 3.14157. .000323, 14.859, 23.7, 42. These settings should get you going in the right direction. For your custom slugs, build yourself a small forge and melt down some junkyard Chevy pistons. Best alloy out there. When you machine them, don't forget that they are cam ground (they are oval, not round) because they don't expand equally as they heat. With the girdle you are building, will you machine yourself a crank with 4 or 7 main bearings? Now I wonder if you could fit yourself a 7 main bearing engine. Now that would be sweet. Since you are going to build a new head anyway, why not clamp your old cast iron head onto a Bridgeport? Slice off the top half so you can see everything inside.
If you noticed I mentioned that To do that It would be necessary to shave the head and realistically completely modify it to be indirectly injected. In other words it couldn't be effectively done to a stock flat head. There are pressing issues for this 1: how to provide fuelling? which manual pump to use? I can only assume a bosch VE style pump, but is there one out there to do the job effectively? or perhaps a different piston is the way to go with direct injection and an electronic control system readily available from many models of inline six available today at any scrapyard. Either way the electronics complicates things and I might as well just put a cummins in there, and the bosch ve setup would also have many issues such as adequate fuelling, correct size and style of swirl chamber, injectors to use, nozzles, braking pressures, spray patterns "this is an overhead injection design involving a flat head, to my knowledge there is no known precedence" How to run and properly time the pump from the crank? "also no known precedense" 2: there are many engine speed issues to overcome, the crank is too heavy and long, adding violent combustion such as the diesel cycle to a thing combined with many other factors is not suited to a high speed combustion engine, "I know that my 1.6 vw turbo diesel maxes out at about 6500 rpm's and that is due to valve float and related issues" running a stock cast crank of that length at high rpms would lead to a bad day and no doubt new engine. The cam would have to completely reworked as well for this and a more efficient lifter setup used with different springs. I am thinking using a forged cnc cam and crank from chromoly, knife edged and a dry sump system used for adequate oiling and the prevention of bearing starvation "these things have very tight tolerances" that isn't the end of it I'm afraid but all I can list from just the top of my head. this is going in the right direction though cast FE is much stronger than AL and a lot of the diesel guys are talking about using a machined head from another material, exept for the cost. ARP studs would have to be used for sure and correct piston height at TDC would have to be measured and the rods would no doubt have to also be of a different design and modified, as well as the piston and skirt design and the advent of oil squirters of some kind be implemented, as well. In other words it wouldn't even be the same engine, but thats is the fun of it in other words, life experience=priceless engin complete after mods=about the same
Thanks for the advice on the alloy, any particular models I should look for? as well as the specs, forge and borax already I have, probably the only guy around who has a 100kva transformer in his garage just to play around with, as well as a semi-working on-demand hydrogen furnace The girdle would just cover the main bearings that are present, there would no doubt be unforseen issues in trying to make the currently unpresent mains present, if you know what I mean. so I'll stick to the stock design, with a few exceptions, teardrop oil passages, knife edged weights, you know, modern advancements thought about cutting the thing in half *hears sylar ticking* and seeing for myself just how the head is setup.
The only way you could mill the head enough to make a diesel fire would be to mill it into a flat slab just like diesel heads mostly are. Of course they can do that because they are OHV engines and the valves open into the cylinder bore. Your engine will not have anywhere for the valves to open to. That is good as if you could get this pipe dream running I bet the crankcase would be leaving the cylinder block post hast. Speaking of pipe dreams just what is in that pipe of yours?
Imagination, ingenuity, and some youth, you know all of the stuff the rest of you lack and a brain, yeah, that is an important part of the equation as well. I don't know, sometimes the dog that scratches his ass with his front paws has a hard time throughout life, and the other dogs just find him downright strange, but he knows how to use his front paws
if you have read anything previously the head couldn't take those kinds of pressures, with such a thin wall between combustion surfaces and the water jacket, although I would have to open the head up to see for sure. I see your point about the valves hitting the combustion surface. Also, as I have said before a new design would surely be in order, I don't think that the designers of this engine took into account that someone might be picking apart their masterpiece and trying to improve a design of pure efficiency to ........ well something else. Much like our forefathers didn't know about workers unions, industrialists, monopolists, and antidisestablishmentarianism
Ingenuity and enthusiasm are important parts of growing up. Failure is the price of experience. If you ever actually try to accomplish any of these pipe dreams I am sure you should gain a lot of experience. Have you looked at the Plymouth flathead? Do you know anything at all about the Diesel cycle? Physical laws? I fear that your pile of mixed parts is destined to remain just that. Maybe you could enroll in some classes on mechanics. Any better grasp of what you are proposing would be an improvement.
Not even a pipe dream, more like useless conversation Just for the record, I am not on drugs, never have, and never will. I do understand the diesel cycle, and if you paid any attention at all it would take a basic redesign of the entire engine to make pretty much any of this work. Experience is something I lack and a lot of you have that on me, just trying to catch up and drive past. I have a flat head, just don't want to cut up the one i'll be using in my rebuild, if I find another I'll be sure to raze it open and unlock her secrets. and no, for the record, this is not a social experiment. thanks, Kevin
bright in the morning in the middle of the night two dead boys got up to have a fight they stood back to back whilst facing one another then they pulled their swords and shot each other a deaf policeman heard the noise and came to arrest the two dead boys
been here a while and already learnd a great deal to which I owe all of the HAMBSTER here a great deal of gratitude. I don't know everything, and don't claim to, and will also be the first to tell you that. I still have a long way to go, but I have some very big gas tanks to fill before I can make the journey.
Maybe you could drop by the Motor Pool and talk to your Motor sargent about your ideas. perhaps another jar head can explain things to you.
I work on an LAV ramp all day, I help the mechs. The big twin charged detroit diesels are not complicated at all. When I'm not doing that I'm troubleshooting communications equipment. I don't need to have them explain it to me, I ask questions that they can't answer, most of theseguys are just bolt turners, no more interesed in their jobs then a slug with a monkey wrench, if that makes any sense.
Kevin: "I'm gonna make this flathead into a rocketship motor! I'm all set, even have a laser death beam transmutator in my garage." Everyone else: "Gee, that sounds hard, and it's not likely to work." Kevin: "Haven't you been paying attention? I said it would be hard. I would never do it, anyway." Everyone else: "WTF!?" This thread is like a train wreck. Can't pull my eyes away.
"can be done" and "will be done" are two completely different things, I admit, there are some contradicting things here in this thread, and as I have said before, I have come a long way. Look at the time that this thread had started to now, there are some big changes here, I only ask that everyone read what I post before making a claim on my sanity. I am still the same person, and am not perfect in any way, be the first one to tell you that too. Can't judge a man by words on the net, you really should meet me in person, then maybe you would understand just how crazy and dissillusioned I really am
Dunno, Kevin, you seem to be more interested in jawboning than anything. This is the only thread I can remember with 'come on, meet me in person' plus the Twitter and Facebook and who knows what else. There is nothing wrong with bench racing or jawboning with your friends. I think though, and someone correct me if I am wrong, that the sweet spot for the HAMB are threads more like (1) How do I do this or (2) Here's how you do this. Open-ended streams of consciousness like your posts cause confusion because other well-meaning HAMB people try to respond to the specific information in one of your posts, only to find that you were really 'just saying'. The HAMB is not a chat room. Doesn't make it right or wrong; it is what it is (but it is pretty damn good!). Suggest you stop firing for effect and figure out what you want us to learn from you OR what it is you are looking to find out, and then we take it from there.
I wasn't aware, knowledge is power, my other forums are a bit more free thought oriented. For the record I do not have a twitter or facebook account, and the only reason I keep a myspace is for my family, and I don't even update it regularly. I personally think that the reds invented that stuff, to include e-mail, phone texting, twitter facebook etc. I am not trying to pull on my own chain if that is what everyone thinks, and you know what they say, the truth is often stranger than fiction. I think I will start over and post only relevant stuff torwards the builds and anything off topic will be covered differently. I guess as a question I would like to know more about the alloy of those chevy pistons mentioned before, and why it is that the piston is oval shaped. Also if anyone has a digital copy of the dodge 230 engine service manual in pdf, that it would be awfully nice to have a look at. thanks, Kevin
(A) On the alloy of the Chevy pistons, I was yanking your chain. Go rent 'Fastest Indian'. (B) It's not about free thought. It's how you represent yourself and your build and certainly, your posts. You're all over the map. You lead the readers down a garden path, and then switch gears. Shall I remind you of "I'm going to restore this car to 100%" and then "no, I'm not"? If it weren't for the entertainment value, most would have tuned out by now. I suppose you want folks here to take you seriously - if not, you would not always be bragging about your MOS. (C) The pistons in your stock 230 motor are cam ground. It's been done since forever. As they are heated, pistons do not expand the same amount in line with the pin as they do perpendicular to the pin. By cam grinding the pistons, they end up perfectly round at normal operating temperature. You throw a lot of terms around. Your posts are fully buzzword compliant, I'll give you that, but it does not sound like there is a lot of substance behind. There is no reason to be hesitant to learn, we all learn here every day, but you throw around terminology like you are Arkus-Duntov himself and then when someone calls you on it, you claim 'hey, free thought". Decide what you want from this thread and stick with it. If you have a different question, start another. If all you want is attention, you've got it, but it won't last. Just a suggestion, and probably my last.
At least the "Slugs" are wrenching. You, on the other hand are obviously a dreamer who will never get past your fantasy. The difference between a dream and a goal is that a goal requires action. Get off of the computer once in a while, get out in the shop and get that pile of parts organized into something other than milk crates full of junk.
If you have access to any of the military maintenance library the M37 and M37B1 series of truck used the dodge 230 flathead six. TM9-1840A/TO 19-75B-15 Ordnance Maintenance Engine (Dodge Model T-245) Clutch (Borg and Beck Model 11828) Would probably be a good place to start. Re-prints/copys are available from various suppliers in the Military Vehicle hobby. Vintage Power Wagons is a good source. http://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/
Talked to the guys over at vinage powerwagons, I'll have to check my old military manuals for the engine specs, was just avoid having to buy something that someone else possibly had. The reason all of the parts were in a milkcrate was because I cleaned everything in the solvent tank, and it was the esiest way to fit everything back into the van. I didn't truly realize that you were yanking my chain about the pistons onc again sarcasm is difficult to convey in text format, still a WIP. When will people learn to stop questioning me, I have done nothing wrong nor told any lies, I have nothing o gain from keeping a useless charade up, so it would be logical to assume that I am not doing so. Do all of you lack logic skills? I have taken many an engine apart, and re-assembled them, the first was the hardest, this will be my very first "CAR" build in that I will not be focusing solely on the engine. I feel I have to defend my character, it isn't bragging, What would you do if you were in my position and were being attacked as I am? Folks often reject those that they don't understand, and I have dealt with adversity in this area for all of my life, I am often treated like crap from dullards because they feel that by making fun of me, or by putting me down they appear more smarterer, this is quite the contrarym you appear quite stupid and insipid to me, and you have pinile size issues to boot, I hardly feel threatened by folks like this. thanks, Kevin P.S. for those offering help on the build and for all of the confidence builders you have my sincee gratitude, as for al others, you make me realize that the characters that Will Ferrel often commits his acting to are real people, WOW! I am truly amazed didn't believe it, but you have run the skeptic right out of me.
B about changing my mind, advice was given by obvious veterans, and I took it, is that bad? I am glad that someone could enjoy it, wouldn't be worth it otherwise C I have read that somewhere, it is a unique design for sure, so I suppose that I know it will last for a long time. I have some pictures of the pistons that came out of the engine, I'll post them up soon. an idea is presented, I then give it SERIOUS thought and consideration, I don't always hit all of the details, but that is why the experts are there. for example converting the flathead to a diesel, not any amount of convincing will lead me to believ that something is impossible, with enough money time and fabrication anything is possible, and I suppose that that is the point that I wanted to make. I can do the last part, just don't want to fill up the forum with useless little tidbits, it takes away from others getting serious help. I once had a garage sale on another forum that I moonlight on, where each ost was a different item, I didn't realize it at the time, but it was quite inconsiderate to the many other forum members, I am still learning etiquet"sp" in these matters, never did have much common sense.
I am, in fact, working on many things everyday, am quite a busy guy, I do a lot of fabrication right now, I'll post some pics if you like, to show off my handiwork, but I have too much going on right at this moment. I have to sell the 78 vw rabbit, the 80' diesel rabbit and fix the plymouth, as well as my other project my 1.6l frankenengine turbo diesel slopped into a 01' toyota mr2 spyder. I know it is a bit much, but I'm not getting laid so I have the free time. I am a man of action, it is all about time management folks, I amy not live to be some of y'all's age so I have to make the most of what I have been gven while I can. thanks, Kevin
Thanks for the tip, I'll have a look at my ol army manuals and see what I can see. are these engine any different, I head tell from somewhere that some of the later engine were longer in size or taller or perhaps wider??? Is there a difference? I know that the output of the older and newer engine was different as well, and that some industrial versions were made with even different still, are all of the internals the same as well as the specs? thanks, Kevin
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