My neighbor kid went to a junior college trade school he is a whiz with a scan tool and as a parts changer . He ask me about a engine noise and I told him it sounded like a rod knock. He pulled the pan and told me he could not see any bent rods.
I told him to look for a discolored rod cap and he found it. He said dealers don't work on engines and transmissions anymore they just use rebuilds.
I know the JC here have an automotive class(es) but they gear it towards tuneup and diagnostics as I recall. I think about the only places you can get taught about engines/drivetrains, etc are the expensive places now. My daughter had a boyfriend that went to one, was a full time school thing lasted for about a year and 1/2, maybe longer.
Why would dealers work on engines? Engine work is open-ended, and as such, not cost-effective for generating the revenue that it takes to keep a modern service center open. Engines and transmissions are routinely rebuilt in factories that specialize in doing just that, on lines where they work on just those, or batches of those models. If it takes, say, 18-labor-hours to do a full teardown and rebuild on a single engine at a dealer, it might take 22-labor-hours to do TEN at a factory, at the same time.
Not entirely true. I'll be willing to bet that in most schools, the instructor doesn't get to choose what he or she is willing to teach. @anthony myrick needs to chime in here.
It is not unusual for a modern engine to last, with regular service, over 200,000-miles. At that point, in the case of an engine and/or transmission failure, most modern vehicles would be considered a total loss, and sent to a dismantler, who will sell off the remaining good parts, and crush the rest for recycling. There is no real money to be made in overhauling modern engines and transmissions. It is not like the days of yore. The average vehicle in the US fleet today is just about 12. Think about what was made in 2021. Those are all digitally managed, and were created using hardcore finite-element-analysis (FEA). The use of FEA, to the modern degree, means that there is little to no overhead left to machine anything to get to a fresh surface. It's one-and-done. Spin a bearing, and the repair cost exceeds the value of the entire vehicle. That is why the training is for Level-1, and Level-2 service. Level-3 means a trip to the salvage yard.
Yep, when engines lasted 100k or less, in those days many dealers had rebuild shops. I certainly wouldn’t want to pay dealer labor rates to have an engine rebuilt now anyways. If an engine/trans etc fails now under warranty, it’s replaced just like tires are.
Oh oh. My students wouldnt recognize lacquer issues with paint. If he’s a whiz with a scan tool and can change parts, sounds like the trade school did good. I’m not training technicians, I’m training students to be successful in an apprenticeship. That’s how I was taught. I went to a trade school, learned enough to be successful as an apprentice, then became a technician. I have students for almost an hour and a half a day. That’s not even 7 weeks of experience based on a 40 hour work week per year. I’m supposed to teach safety, what and how to use tools, identify parts and systems, terminology, vehicle construction …..basic stuff. Plus those “soft skills” like how to even show up for a job. I’m high school, so I have to assume the student doesn’t know a screwdriver from a socket. You guys would also be surprised what my students can’t do or not proficient at. A lot of us had an advantage most young people don’t, growing up working on things. Those relatives or neighbors that taught us volumes. Recently I visited a former student at work, he works at my former shop. If I were to return to that shop, he would be teaching me. Should the neighbor stated by the OP recognize rod knock, well he can now thanks to hanging out with someone that does. He could probably show me some things on a scan tool.
I went a trade school 35 years ago for a different occupation. They only teach you the basics. It`s up to you how far you want to go in your field. Or how good you want to be. 22 years of being self-employed. You get to the point of being better than your boss at the trade at hand. Both business sense and skill wise. Or you just continue being an employee or switch professions. ---------So, you should show him more of what you know and see if he is willing to learn and be more knowledgeable.
Also, for another wrinkle, all post-secondary trade schools, be they public or private, have some level of accountability to demonstrate that they are teaching things that will be directly useful to their students, in today's job market. For most of those going into the automotive sector, that's service, not overhaul. It's swap, not rebuild. The sun long ago set on that era in the primary market. I would contend that any instructor that teaches anything beyond the theory of what is being done outside of primary job duties in the extant job market would necessarily be exposing themselves to possible termination.
I teach apprenticeship automotive here in Alberta, obviously different than there, however, the Alberta government dictates our course outline.
If you study the curriculum of any two year trade school each section of the vehicle is taught in a specific segment of the class. Looking at the UTI website it shows specialization in one specific area rather than general mechanics. It also shows brand specialization. The days of the do it all mechanic in the local independent shop were starting to go out in the 70's when I was working in independent shops and dealerships and tire stores. The independents were already discovering that if they specialized in one area they could make more money while turning out better work than trying to do it all. Even the independent shops I worked in had guys who specialized in certain areas. The local to me trade school JM Perry has a one year automotive program that covers the basics but you are only going to learn the basics that let you go on to be an apprentice. My 1946 Motor manual will walk you through most repairs on all American brands available in 1946 in one book. The two large volume book repair manual for my 98 BMW 528I has one book on just electronic diagnosis and I'd have to go out and go page by page to see if it even covered engine overhaul.
As far as what’s taught Well, I helped write out current curriculum for the state. So I can’t really complain. But instructors can modify what’s taught. For instance, welding in our state varies due to location. We have ship building on the coast, mining in the middle and military/space industries in the northern part. Basics are standard but welding processes for each area can vary. Each class has an advisory board made from local businesses, technicians, former students, or any related career path. This board can vote and change any parts of the curriculum the board says is needed. Each school system is different. Some classes are over 2 hours long. Some as short as 45 minutes. So the amount of curriculum that can be taught will vary depending on class time. Our mechanics instructor has never been asked if he has a student that can build engines. He teaches “maintenance and light repair” thats the official name for the course. The engines that his student build are almost always things for the crazy stuff we build in my class. Bonus experience. Same for my students when we build things like the bus, metal finishing a fender on my merc or a current OT build we’re doing. But it all fits problem solving. A skill that most employers asks for in an employee.
JC is just a leg up to a University. Same with auto tech courses, just a start to Wyo-tech or some other tech school. (In my opinion)
I wonder if any university offers any automotive classes? I can see that JC is good prep for a Wyotech, etc.
I’m my observation, j c in general are a good way for kids on a budget to get into a four year collage. We did that with our daughter. Get your basics then take a junior transfer to a University. Probably works well in the tech course’s to a private college. As you can see by my writing skills…..high school only
I’m a firm believer in JC’s and a graduate ( diploma, not degree) but I wish I’d have done it much younger than when I did.
That you are able to influence what is taught across your state is a blessing for all those students who are willing to learn. I am sorry for those students who aren't. I can understand the need for modifications to the curriculum in certain areas. As I said in another thread, the local vo-tech school teaches only those courses that will turn out workers required for specific areas in large automotive manufacturing plants in this area, medical assistants, truck drivers and so forth. It sounds as if your advisory board has a pretty good handle on what's going on in your area.
Depends on the system. 98% of my students are I-Car credentialed. Meaning, a credential plus core credits at the state minimum, then they are considered eligible for graduation. That makes the people in the office happy. All my SRs are credentialed. When the office is happy then the extra things we do aren’t considered an issue. My advisory board is happy Plus we have a “car club” which means we can do all kinds of things. Not all systems have the “artistic license” that my school has.
Most colleges are adopting that model. We lost 3 college level collision programs in my area. Over 200 have closed nationwide since 2019. A school will close a repair program to teach manufacturing. One reason is how covid funds are earmarked. Funds can be used to update or repair buildings but not used to build new buildings. So they close a repair program to spend the $$$$$$ to remodel a building into a new program. You could have plenty of students in a college shop class, get them jobs but still not be considered a viable program if you don’t have enough students earning degrees. Even for an industry that doesn’t require one. Areas recruit businesses/industry and use education as a bargaining tool. If a city/state wants to land a factory, then offering training is an incentive. So out with the repair programs and in with the manufacturing.
Hello, When the local high school students leave the automotives program, they are usually qualified to work at the local car dealers as service technicians. Students are awarded an ASE Student Certification certificate for each test passed. The certification is valid for two years from the date the test was taken. Usually, the graduating high school student with his passed tests can go to work at the local dealers. Or into an apprentice program with small auto repair shops. But, when they move on to the Junior College certificated programs, there are several sections of specialists degrees that are offered. Jnaki The high school Auto Shop programs used to be at all campus locations. But they are now located in one high school campus and all students from the local district are eligible to attend. The junior college is local and has a wonderful program that is geared to getting a certificate and skills to be fully employed by the local auto shops/dealers. ASE certificates are the end goals. If the for profit programs outside of school are available, that is like paying for various beginning to advanced programs that one can get for a minimal cost in high school curriculum or definitely at the local Junior College. In So Cal, most Junior College programs are top rated and are well respected from the industry. YRMV https://www.saddleback.edu/programs-degrees/all-programs/automotive-technology
Anyone who spent time on Early V8- Fordbarn should recall the contributor Gosfast. He was great at sharing tips. Gary would always reccomend power gains. Real excitment was shown when he could account for a process that would save time in the whole process of flathead rejuvenation
Southern Illinois University at Carbondale offers a Bachelor of Automotive Maintenance degree. Several years ago, I interviewed at my Alma Matter (Ranken Technical College) to be an instructor and they stated I would need to obtain this degree. The shop I work for in St. Louis is one of the few shops left in our city that overhauls diesel engines. Most truck shops in our area will just sling a reman engine. Most class eight trucks with proper care will go a million miles without major engine work. Like Gimpy stated, at that point the truck isn’t worth putting a $30,000 overhaul or $60,000 reman into. Cars today are the same way. It’s very hard to fault the way that automotive students are taught because the industry has changed so very much. Engines have become so good that they are really considered sealed units.
A friend of mine in AZ has 2 children, a son and a daughter. His daughter went the 4 year college route with a ton of student debt. Upon graduation she began working in a day car facility along with the requisite diaper changing. His son enrolled in a diesel repair trade school. Before he even graduated he was working part time for a major diesel truck dealership and went full time when he graduated. His dept load was considerably less than his sister's.
We have Pitt state college close here. 15 yrs ago they had an excellent auto tech center and classes. Engine repair, frame repair and body collision work then they started closing it down even though the classes were always full and they had students coming from all over. Several oem car makers would come and try and recruit students but the college head decided that rhe college needed to appeal to an upper class of students so those buildings started to get remodeled and auto tech got smaller. Our town will host art show walks on main Street but want no part of car shows or car clubs....
Here’s irony: I have an Associate of Automotive Technology degree, two years in college. My brother, has a PHD in education, and we both make roughly the same salary. However, his debt load from college is about what I have invested in tools and equipment. The kick in the nuts is, he has all summer off. Dad told us both, “Work with your Brains and not your back”, one of us listened.
Gimpy is spot on. I am the Quality and Warranty Manager in one of those factories. We remanufacture 40 diesel engines (plus components like turbos, heads, etc.) per day ranging in size from 900 cc to 18 Liters. It would scare you guys to know how many HD truck shops these days even refuse to do in-frame rebuilds. It is not that hard to change out a cylinder liner and piston/rod, after all, that is what wet sleeve engines were designed for. But the technical expertise is just not there and the shop is convinced they can't make money doing it. Just swap the motor and send it back to us for a reman.
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