Projects Koz is building a modified, (my next build)

Some observations on the car above and I put this to the Forum here as to whether I'm barking up the right tree so to speak.

I have spent some time scaling the photo and the ones posted in the related thread on Mr. Proulx car......

The wheels appear to be 17", not 16" which would make them from a Model B or '33/'34 donor. This would make sense as the rear tires are available in that tread pattern in a 7.50-17 as Firestone repops today. The front tires are so generic it's anybody's guess.

As there are apparently no photos of the front or rear of the car I'm speculating here.... I think from the position of the axle and the location of the center of the wheel to the frame, the car uses an early dropped axle, spring over, and some type of crossmember in front of the radiator. This would make sense as drop axles came into favor right before the war and this was most certainly a cutting edge ride in it's day. T front crossmembers were commonly used for this purpose although the rails, under close examination appear to be "A". This would make sense as well because of the way the mechanical brake rods are positioned in the related thread pics leads me to believe the cross rod for the brakes is "A".

The intake, because of the sort of "blocky" ends on the plenums appears to be Tattersfield. I think this also would have been pretty trendy for the day. I know it has been possibly identified as a Thickstun. Not doubting the experts but I have both on hand and It just appears to be more like the Tattersfield. Total speculation as it's so tough to see in the pics.

The steering is obviously generic Ford used as a cowl steer.

My bet is the radiator hangs below the frame rails slightly which helps with getting the car this low. If you look at the other pics..... which I lifted off the thread mentioned above,



You can see the car is actually deceptivly low. Just a bit lower than the typical prewar car. Mr Proulx was definitly ahead of the curve.

I'm thinking the car had some type of open drive which would have accounted for the fabbed rear radius rods using early Ford steering components. Perhaps a Cad/Lasalle trans with open drive? No idea.

I'm not trying to repop the car, just get the flavor.

You thoughts?

 

Not trying to thumb my nose at tradition, but just how bad would this car be in street trim with a Scott on it!

Pure hot rod ****.

 

Just a couple quick thoughts. I think the rear wheels are '35 16"ers, whereas the fronts are 16" Kelsey Hayes.I had never noticed the difference in the center diameters until reacently when a friend set both side by side.

As far as the rear radius rods go, I would bet that they are just "split" and brought out to the frame rails. It was fairly common, but certainly not good practice when used with a torque tube, (bind city!) but I'm thinking the lowness that you and I both noticed about the car means they ran out of room underneath for rear wishbones. At the time the car was built, there would have been no real reason or advantage to doing an open drive conversion.


Dropped axles while not entirely unheard of before the war, didn't really start to show up on cars until about '47-'48 or so. I would imagine that it might have had a bull dog perch of some sort that dropped the axle ***embly quite a bit lower than normal. The "T" crossmember thing I have seen on way vintage speedsters from about ten to fifteen years earlier, but I hadn't seen it again until recently. Might be though. I too would love to see a front or rear shot of the that car too!

And for the record, Hell yes to the SCOTT blower!

 

Good looking project, and thanks for sharing the rod bracket detail with us.
Michael

 

I agree with the rear radius rod thing. I'm wondering if I would set the radius rods on "dead center" of the universal if this would work on the street with a car of limited suspension travel. I've certainly seen worse!

I think an undropped front axle, either "A" or V-8 60 would look best. I am a little worried how high a perch would be needed to set the car at that ride height. How the front end looks is going to be the toughest part of getting the car right. If the car doesn't nail it from the front it will never be convincing. The reason I think the car had a drop axle is the split bones run about even and parrallel to the frame. This puts them about 3" below where a straight axle would set. To get the bones that low the axle would have needed to be dropped. Even the V-8 60 couldn't get that low by the way the photo looks to me. Maybe just the way the pic is shot but in the last pic I posted it's even more apparent.

I'm kind of up in the air on the 16" v. 17" thing. I scaled of of the 21 stud head, which I have one to measure and it puts the wheels as 17", (17 7/8" OD). This could be just the angle the pic as shot at and it sure as hell doesn't matter. I agree they sure look like 16's by the space between the hub and the rim. At any rate, I'll just use which ever rims I have that are in the best condition. They both would have been used in this time period and I think they both look great.

Your thoughts on the rear end thing?

 

I think the wheels are bent-spoke 16" Kelseys on the front and back (in the clearer pic farther up with the owner sitting in the car). And I believe the axle was not dropped. If the axle was dropped, the wishbones would be lower than the wheel center. As they are, the wishbones point rather towards the center of the wheel, as a straighter axle may indicate.

The intake is an early Thickstun, the pre PM-7 kind. Pictured below:

.

 

Eh, Er... It certainly has been done lots back in the day, and setting it up to be correct length to pivot at the head of the torque tube would explain the custom radius rods too. Officially, with all of the H.A.M.B. looking on I would say no, no, a thousand times no. But if we were hanging out in your shop or mine drinking a beer, I'd point out that the frame is awfully narrow helping with triangulation, and that it has been done, what, 750 jillion times before, and the car is gonna be super light and therefore little real suspension articulation or stress and say "go for it"! Besides, my modified is set up basically the same way using '42-'48 rear bones but with an open driveline. I haven't driven it yet at all. But after years of "T" buckets and such set up in a similar fashion, no matter how geomterically incorrect it is, it does work. But getting the pivot points on the same plain not only lenght wise, but horizontally as well with the pivot ball on the torque tube would be key.

As far as the front perch goes, you can also run the spring on top of the perch too, with the u-bolts going over the top of the spring. it adds about 1 1/2-2" of extra low and would be easy to do with the perch you have set up.

 

I beg to differ in that I don't think the wheels are the bent spoke Kelseys but I do agree with the intake. I've never even seen a Thickstun that old! Way cool, but the intake I have is going to have to do.

I also agree it looks like the car went through a bunch of changes and possibly several owners. In the clear photo, I still think the 'bones set about 3" lower than the wheel center line. It is very difficult to get a handle on this stuff with the limited pics, but those of you who know me pretty much know I'll do what I want anyway!

The proof is going to be when the whole shebang is bolted together and I can actually stand back and look at it. If I get that far next week I'll post up some straight on pics from about the same angles and see how close we can get.

Dufus Dave borrowed my camera so I can't post any pics this weekend but I have a load of good stuff that came in for the build. Time is a wastin'. The front perch on that frame is made to take the spring over. I'm thinking on using a reworked "A" frame as opposed to the fabbed frame I started with just for the appearance. The frame is a no brainer for me so it's not like I'm losing a lot of time. I'll set up the front end the same way with a bolt in crossmember and perch.

I'm back at it.
Thanks for the input all of you. It helps immemsly to have a second opinion and some knowledge of the cars of the era. Keep 'em coming!

Also Louvers', I agree with the ***umption that I can make the rear rods work. I've done way stupider stuff than that and made it work. The pivot point is going to be that of the "ball" on the torque tube as the U joint inside actually slides a bit to compensate. I already have the captive rod ends on the bench and I'll have the 'bones on soon.

 

Alchemy, You got me dwelling on those front 'bones and to be honest, now I don't know! I'm going to have to buch all this stuff up to get a feeling for the overall stance. I'll know when I do it.

 

The original pic of the guy sitting in the roadster/modified has bent spoke 16" KH wheels front and back.

 

Thanks Larry!

 

I concede to the Kelseys. I have picked up some other wires as a set of 16" Kelseys is probably out of the question cost wise. This car is being built to make one run, to Fall Wildwood, and then probably be parted out. I'm dwelling on dumb stuff way too much here. I just need to build it and be done. I'll capture the essence of the build and live with it.

 

I pulled the flatty down today. Pretty much what I expected, (pretty sad). The motor sat for some time with water in the front cylinders and the pistons were froze in the bores. The valves are equally screwed up. The rest of the motor looks pretty good! I'm having some difficulty getting the cam out, mostly because some of the valves are corroded tight. I don't want to trash it because it looks really good and I might salvage it along with the aluminum cam drive gear. I want to get it running for the Fall run an then when I have time over the winter I can tear it down and get it right.







I know this looks pretty rough but I've brought worse back from the dead!



This is what aluminum pistons look like when removed with a large hammer and br*** drift.........

I believe I can salvage the crank with just a polish and I'll have the rods resized and bushed and checked for straightness after my at least somewhat reserved abuse session. I'm going to have the bores done to 3 5/16", which won't be wasted if I reuse them later. I'm goint to check on what it costs to have the crank and rods done along with the cost of pistons and decide if it's just better to buy a stroker kit from H & H Flatheads, ($ 1800.00!), but it would make for a really sweet motor. That kit includes rod bearings, rings and the balance, along with the **** 4" crank. It might be worth it. I'll probably tie up at least a grand at the machine shop on top of that plus all the other parts that go with it. I'm thinking 6 Gs' minimum. Probably the most expensive motor I've ever owned. Tough decision.

I've also picked up some of the most mint 17" '32 thru '34 wires I've ever seen and they have like new 5.50-17 Firestones on them as well. I'f I don't like the way they look I can always trade them for ome 16"'s. There is not a speck of rust on them anywhere and looks as if there never was. They were on a '32 roadster that was a mint origional car that was street rodded. Sad.



Probably the nicest wheels I've ever had.

I've had a few minutes to relax now so back to cam removal.

 

I forgot to mention, I have also aquired all the stuff to do the rear suspension in the style that the Proulx car used. Time is of the essence!!!!!!

I do need a few things that if anyone has for sale give me a shout.......

decent '40 to 48 front brakes, an 8ba bell and matching starter plate, a shift lever for a '37 box and a '40 to '48 rear. I have one but I could use a better one.

I could also use some kind of short emergency brake ratcheting lever.

Thanks guys!

 

Got the rear and bell..... Still need the brakes.

 

damn koz, how come you can build faster than i can read? can't wait to see this one done.

 

Koz...I've always liked '35 Ford wires better than Kelsey Hayes...go with what you got.

 

I've ordered a set of new water pumps for the flatty along with some misc small stuff I need to get started. My trans is on the way and I'm picking up the rest of my drivetrain this weekend. With the correct pumps on the block I can set my engine location and fab the frame mounts for the flatty. When I have the drivetrain layed out I can finish my bodywork up while the motor is at the machine shop.

I took a '28 AR cowl, which I was given by 1Oldrat some time ago, removed the tank and narrowed the cowl 2 1/8" by splitting the center and removing the filler neck. This gave me the width I want for the cowl not knowing how wide the muse car is.







I have the metal as close as I can get it so I'll just give it a light wipe of lead for a decent finish. I straightened the cowl lower edges to get the sides straighter and the profile, though a bit hard to see in these pics, is remarkibly close to the pic I'm using as inspiration.



I really like the way the front lacing bead on the AR cowl lends itself to an early flavor.



I kept the beads intact on the firewall to continue with the vintage look. They'll finish out nicely. I also started fabricating a lower panel to tuch around the 8ba bellhousing and accept the front side panels that will hold my door hinges. With the cowl coming together I can fab an inner cage similar to my sport coupes that will hold my pedals and the '56 pickup box I'm using for my cowl steer. I have a very vintage "Bell" style steering wheel which will bolt to the reworked '37 sleeve I'm using on my approximatly 12 1/4" column. All pretty neat!



Back to work with me. I ain't getting **** done sitting here!

 

looks good koz,ur makin' progress...

 

Ok We need more pictures please lookin like one hell of a start.

 

Working on getting all the PM's and letters with payment out to all the parts I've bought on the HAMB and Ford Barn this week. I have virtually every part for the car either coming or being picked up in the next few days. I still need a few things, a '37 shift lever and some small engine parts.

I'm taking Need Louvers? advice and fabbing a bull dog perch for the front axle with the spring over and a stock Model A axle to get the car low enough to match the photo. I agree with his thoughts on the Kelseys but I just can't justify the cost. I have made some patterns up to fold some more appropriate rails than the ones I started with. I think I have a '40 rear in the pipeline and hopefully I'll be able to pick it up over the weekend. My trans should be here in the next 5 or 6 days from WV. I have two sets of Mercury 8CM heads on the way for the flatty. In addition I'm picking up my bellhusing and some small parts this weekend as well. I also have a radiator on the way.

I can't find my valve bar for the flatty so I ordered another which will be here Thursday. I'm send ing the block to the hot tank and then I'm going to fab up my mounts and set my driveline before I send the block to the machine shop for a 3 5/16" punch and a Serdi job on the valves including new hardened seats and stainless valves. I have the Thickstun but I'm not sure I want to use it on this car. Jurys out yet.

I took a little time to ventilate my front axle.





The sheet metal for my body is in so I can start forming side panels. I know my sweety can't get in without doors but I love the way the upholstery rolls over the top of the shell. Maybe I could just toss her in?

The coolist thing is going to be the rear radius rods. I have a trick or two ready for them. Next weeks project! I have two weeks to get the ch***is together and fab the body to stay on schedule. I'm busy!

 

Maybe you could fab up a small step for her similar to the nerf-bar "triangles" that you see in front of the rear wheels on the dirt track cars, something you can bolt to the ch***is whenever she plans to go with you and take it off when you go solo..

 

Good idea. I was thinking she might just be able to stand on the radius rod and get in also. I think it's more of the "graceful entry" thing than actually getting in. The origionals only had one door anyway. The drivers side was just a bead to look like one. It will depend on how low this actually sets when on the wheels.

 

I built a "no doors" speedster years ago. We welded a partial brake pedal to the radius rod and used the stock rubber pad. It worked well.

 

I'm in the process of stripping the block. I'm down to four valves. The crying shame is the stuff that I was able to get out was absolutly mint. Had this motor not sat around with water in it I would have been able to fire and run the thing this year. The valves and seats are perfect on the untrashed cylinders.





There's pretty much no saving even part of the valvetrain as I pretty much had to trash most of it to get it out. I'm going to fire up the torch and remove the last few of the valves and guides. This could be disturbing to somebody used to modern engines and shops with tools and stuff but it was common practice back in the day.

I also had the UPS fairy come and deliver a new pair of Speedway water pumps so that I can mock up the drivetrain and get everything square with the world. I picked up the steel for my body back half so the weekend will be spent blanking panels in addition to picking up a bunch of other parts within driving distance.



Thats a real do it yourself body kit if I ever saw one. After my sweetie saw my post about her graceful entry and exit from the car she agreed it might not be that tough to jump over. I'm going to mock up the body and as long as it isn't higher than the hot tub she can make it in and out. I've seen her get in and out of the hot tub and trust me, it's not that graceful! ( Damn, I hope she doesn't read that !!!!!)

Time to fire up the hot wrench.

 

Go with doors you will never be sorry you put in the extra effort, you are no longer a kid.

 

A couple of guys have posted about what the two round things between the headers are on Mr. Proulx modified. It was, and still occasionally is, practice to use the oil pan for breather source on a flatty. After looking at that I remember my Dad doing that on flattys in the mid fifties they ran on the circle tracks. Always on the left side only because the oil pretty much stuck to the right side of the pan in the turns.

 

I can't photograph mine right now because of where it is at in the shop, but I welded a step pad onto the rear axle on her side. Ain't no way a five footer is going to go over the side by herself, especially with the exhaust pipe running down "her" side...

 

I don't think so either. The only clinker is I can't have the side pipes and doors too. I'm sure I can come up with an alternate exhast that will allow the opening doors. The doors on this car, being full overlay with a beaded edge are so easy to make it's sort of second nature so it's not like it's going to be a large time ****er. I want to do a pretty nice job on the body so it doesn't just look like I pounded some sheetmetal around a seat so there are some reasons to add the doors. Proportion on this build is everything. Let's face it, I'm not setting myself up for failure, but in true Koz fashion I have a hard time just banging something together. I just wanted to build a simple car for one run and now I immersed in sourcing some pretty involved parts and the car is not longer a P.O.S. but something pretty special. If I can pull this all together it will be retty much a rolling history of what a very early fifties dual purpose car could have not only looked like, but what it would have felt like to run down the open road. The style could have been built by somebody with limited resources and a lot of creativity. The view over cowl, watching the wide belt on that flatty run at 60 on the Parkway will be worth the price of admission alone. I admit this car is a little dumb for me to build because it has just about no resale value except as parts but it will be the car I'm sure my Dad would have loved to own in his prime had he been able. I'm budgeting the car at just under 10K finished and that includes a fairly well done engine. Without the engine done "right" it just wouldn't be the same.

My route on the flatty is- Tank the block and make sure it's not a fried marble. Bore to 3 5/16" with a Flathead Jack stroker kit including Ross pistons and H beam rods and a 4" crank with full size journals. Isky 88 cam with Isky adjustable lifters, undercut stainless valves, Merc heads cut .010, (should give me just under 9-1 on the pistons. Nice port and polish, Bubbas distributor with centrifigal full advance, (12V), and a pair of Holley 94's on an as of yet undetermined intake. Exhaust is up in the air at this point. The car will tell me what it wants. I'll run a Melling standard pump and the truck pan I have now.

I want to run a PowerGen and I don't want it offset so I'll probably use either the Tattersfield or the Thickstun high rise. One of the Eddie Meyers Hollywood repops would be pretty cool too. A Scott is definitly out of the budget! If I can get it in under the wire an aluminum flywheel would be the nuts with this light a car.

I'm pretty good on flattys as there is a ton of little **** that goes into building one and I can get them to run pretty nice. With this setup I'll have a very strong and pretty reliable street runner. No world cl*** smoker, just a good basic street motor.

I'll probably have Reider do the machine work just because I trust him on this, bore, Serdi valve job, deck and line hone. The rotating ***embly comes already balanced. The valves are everything on a flatty!

I'd like to have the block Redi Stripped but I can't seem to find one around here anymore. I've souked them in a plastic barrel full of Muriatic Acid dilute already and it does a good job of cleaning them out also.

Enough bench racing, back to work.

 

After a week of busting my balls, 1 bent valve spring bar and finally a torch and cutoff wheel and the valves and guides are out of the block! I have it stripped enough to send it to the tank for a flea dip so that I can start on the port work and general block cleanup.



It's been a while since I've done one of these and you almost forget how good the casting on these blocks was. Very neat with almost no spru but lots of sand left. The webbing around the cam is just gorgeous!



I need to drop this off so I can get it back to set up the driveline.