I has just bought a set of a nice set of L&S heads. Intake is a 4 carb intake and its name is E&S supermarine special. My idea is to use 4 old 81 carbs. This will be on a 30 over std 59 AB block with a 4" Merc crank and a Potvin 3/8 cam. As I got it it's pretty rare stuff. I could not refuse not get them. Look cool, but what about the history. I read some of the history with Kong helped out and Ed Schneck moved to Gerogia. Was this mainly for boat racing ( aka the name ) but I heard of B-Ville records with this stuff (?) Late 40's my guess. Why did the name chanched ? Any further info ? ——- The E&S heads were made by E&S Manufacturing Co. 1828 Keystone St. Burbank CA phone CHase 7-7447, Ed Schneck owner, Kong Jackson was involved in the design. They also made several styles of multiple carburetor intake manifolds. The "Super Marine Special" was a staggered 4 carb beauty with fins. They also made a cool 2 carb manifold featuring a "Blast Box" for street use which could be replaced with a low carburetor mounting plate for racing applications. Other products included scoops and an offset generator mounting bracket. The company moved to Georgia at some point and changed the name to L&S. The E&S Custom, Super Race, and Supermarine heads feature a revolutionary design of combustion chambers, valve and dome areas, which results in absolute maximum turbulance and enables the use of ten to one and higher compression ratioswith maximum volumetric efficiency and excellent fuel flame propagation. "Chioking off and "peaking"
Cool, nice score! Flip one of heads over and take a pic so we can feast on those "revolutionary" combustion chambers.
I would like to know more info how the they set up the engine for a speed record. -Who could know history of this ? This set I bougt came from California over to Sweden as my guess e-bay. Seller here has not use them and been in a bix for years ( 10 or 20 ) so only thing he knew they was rsre and expensive and they had a speed record. Here I found a guy sold a set and se below what he say. I’m not plan go fast or so but I like to know history and how they builded the engine. Any idea of a name that might can help out , tell me here on mail me private. ——- Vintage Ford flathead E & S staggered 4 intake. Has Big 97 Stromberg carbs complete. They made very few of the E & S, this type of manifold took the record at the El Mirage races in 1947 with a speed of 139 mph. Made by E & S Whittier, California.
The transfer area in the heads is designed for a very deep block relief. Kong knew what he was doing there. Too bad he stuck with dome pistons.
Speaking of carbs. Water tube hit the head at one side so they dont belong. I dont know if carbs will fit. I’m not after best HP but the look and racing history and has a intrest to know how engine was set-up when L&S set the record late 40’s with this heads. What intake, carbs, methanol or racing fuel etc
Pete, Explain what you mean with ' stuck with dome pistons. I'm into find old speed pistons for this engine. I guess most had dome, or ? I'm not planning ( but I can ) to relif block, will that hurt flow on this heads if not do it.
It will be hard to use this combo as it is. Its simple not fit togheter. Seller did not know. My guess this heads is older and the guy made the water tubes ( was it Ed Schenk ? ) did not use a direct port 4x2 intake ( so my guess intake is newer or made for boats or not the L&S heads I has ) I know the intake will be hard on street but its cool ( the way I see it ) I fell into the concept of the 4 carbs low mounted. That’s really why I bought the kit. I cant say who made this water tubes but they make the heads look racy. But its a clearance issue both to intake and carbs to the tubes and its not possible to bolt carbs there. -So, some needs to go, but heads is cooler than the intake - period To make new water tubes will be hard, they is slim as they is. It can be possible to make 2” riser block under carbs but its tight to the tube for a riset block - se pictures. Ideas ? This heads is at 59 CC and see the cross section in chamber is at 0.15”. In a std bore 3.19” and 4” stroke and 0.04” gasket and flat top pistons its 9 and dome pistons would be 10 in compression. Domed piston and 0.08” or maybe 0.1” relif might maybe 8.
That carb setup was an attempt to replicate IR w/a short runner length. May very well be surprised how well it'll work. You could always make extensions to get a longer runner length, would "hit" harder at lower rpm. You get to do the calcs for what ever rpm vs length(s) you want/need/can get. Think Webers or Dellortos. You also get to tune(read: modify) the 2bbls so they work correctly on IR-type manifolds. Hint: read up on the 200cfm & 300cfm Holley BugSpray. Should help get you going. Also read up on Hilborn, the 1st guy to run FI on a lakes car successfully & market it. He found, in early experimentation, due to the firing order, 1pr of ports needed a much larger carb than the other 3prs. Which is one reason he went to individual stacks w/constant-flow fuel(injected). As for heads, Kong did a lot of chambers using std pistons, & some that used pop-ups, ie: piston heads(not just the piston dome) stuck up beyond the deck(1/8" -> ~1/4") but rings can't go beyond deck surface(or of course, the depth of any relieving). Navarro probably did more of the pop-up types than anyone. The pics aren't real clear for me, but from what little I can see, those don't look like they were for pop-ups. They would have a very deep cut for the piston, & the transfer area is also fairly deep, even w/the piston-portion of the combustion chamber. Why? Gives a lot less restricted breathing(relieved or not) on a flattie, but that little slick trick requires other fancy work, so most didn't bother w/it. More than 1 way to work around the coolant-piping issues. Unless you absolutely, positively, no-other-possibility, gotta use those exact coolant tubes. Marcus...
Cool looking heads! As Pete noted, the heads have a very tight transfer area, so you'll need to relieve the block to get the flow through there - probably about .187 deep. The heads have obviously been used a bit - given the roughness of the deck surfaces, they will need to be surfaced. Also, you may need to have them re-domed - for piston clearance. I'd spend time to get the squish at .040 on the street. Before you do anything to the heads, you need to first check the decks on the block and most likely square-deck the block to true up both sides and have a great sealing surface. Make sure your machinist puts the block in a machine that picks up the mains/saddles - such that the heights match on both sides (the only real way to do it). I always put the crank rods in the block BEFORE going to the machine shop - so I have some idea as to how far they are off and to determine the decking depth for both sides. The valve heights on the Driver's side are about .040 higher than the Passenger's side - due to the valve angles being different (due to the crank centerline being offset). Make sure the machine shop doesn't attempt to make the valve heights the same on both sides - via decking (have seen blocks ruined in this manner). You'll then need to put a crank/rod back in the block and determine exactly what your compression height needs to be - then order the pistons to match. If you have a very deep relief, you should move the ring pack down a bit - to keep the extra heat out of the top ring. Also, order the pistons with metric rings (call Ross pistons). You'll need to know what rings size you'll be running (to determine bore size) before you bore/hone the block as only certain sizes will be available (remember metric rings). Ross will move the pin and ring pack around to match your specifications. This allows you to tune the squish to exactly match your block and heads and to run modern rings (which are a lot better than the old Hastings/Grant stuff everybody tended to run). You'll also need to have the valve areas reworked to support a high lift cam. It looks like there won't be enough room for the valves given the size of the chambers. Good luck! B&S
Here is a bigger picture on the chambers ( some has said the small pics cant be seen, but in my computer I’ll just press on picture and they get Big ) Valve pocket deep is 10.5 mm or 0.41” plus add a 1 mm gasket of 0.04”. I must surface them. Decked at mains ofcourse. I plan a .400” cam. Chamber is 0.23" deep plus the gasket at 0.04" so if gasket at 0.04" is the 'clearance' = piston to head, but this Ross pistons has a dome height at 0.185". -So it might be Ok ? I has BHJ tools for bore and diamond honing. I know of a set of pistons ( cheap and new Ross ) I can get but I think its to much overbore and rings is wide 3 and 5/32’s... But shore I can get load out of them by machine them ( old trick ) Se data.
Marcus, I was little low on realise I could not has the carbs down low. I will not change heads, and I like the water tubes to them... plus I love the intake, but it don't fit togheter ! So the only way is to make the runners longer. I need get around 2" adaptors to get above the water tubes. But good to hear you say ; do it ,- ) I has no clue on this intake or runners in them or how they work with this bore/stroke/cam or how they will react by get carbs 2" up, but on paper its say more TQ. But its how pulses are, it might be to low at std, who knows.
If you go to a .060 or so overbore, then you can use the following piston set from Ross - is has the 1.5, 1.5, 3.0 metric ring package. But, depending on how deep of a relief you make, you may want to call them and order the pistons with the ring package moved down a bit. Also, stocking pistons have a standard CH, depending on your specific block, you may need to modify the CH to get the piston dome where it should be. This will depend on whether or not you have the domes reworked on your heads. I can't say what you'll need - it will take measuring of everything. Ford: Flat Head – Dome Top: 3.248 Bore – 4.000 Stroke – 1.436 C/H – #80579
In the end - after the block is decked, heads are surfaced and with a gasket in place, you want .040 to .045 (max) squish between the piston crown and the head. Having a tight squish is very important for flatheads - I always setup the combination to achieve this. Once you have figured out how you'll achieve this, then you can worry about the valve pockets. The valves are canted - they will hit up by the top of the chamber eyebrows first.
Yes to make things Ok here I guess custom pistons. I would run old speed pistons as this car is set up that way ( parts inside no one see, but me as old crank, rods, pressuare plate ) But modern custom pistons and light modern valves is a good way. Yes I plan 81’s. If, hard get this togheter ( intake ) I’m back use a small GMC and 2 97’s. But when I saw this intake I feelt for it
Big thanks on information ! For a sum up. Parts was manufactored by Shenk brothers in LA. Then Claude Osiecki bought the castings late 40’s and moved to Atlanta. Louie and Ed’s castings was only pre war. Claude added the ’Racing’ logo and made both L&S and E&S logo heads. A question ; Was both casted the same period or came E&S Racing later ( but same head/castings as the L&S Racing ) A question ; The speed record to be told on use heads or just the intake 1948. Was that the Schenk brothers or Claude or a customer. ( maybe just intake was used ? ) Speaking of the intake. One told me this intake is not rare at all, they was made thousends of them. Here is the named E&S and ’marine’. That confuse me. Was boat racing that big so it has the name ? Still its said set a speed car record 1948 ( 139 MPH ) Was this Shenk brothers or Claude who cast and sold the intake ? The water tubes is odd as it not fit the heads to this same brand intake. My guess they came from the shop cast the heads but I just guess. Odd to sell parts in same brand and they not fit ? Seller told me the only photo he has ever seen on this heads they had not this water tubes. They used a centre inlet the 2 others blocked. -But I found a picture yesterday but he had a super charger on but the same tubes ( Racing logo on tube ) .
Here is the only set I seen picture and it was from Hamb. Did not has the watertubes. One thing I do note, the upper heads has 3 inlet holes but the lower has just 2 inlet holes. Then the intake that I think its call ’the blast box’
If you built new water tubes you wouldn’t necessarily need to make them thinner just locate the “log” part of it further out over the head to clear the carbs? neat set of speed parts either way. Don’t see four carb for a flathead like that very often
Tim, Thats why I bought it. The L&S heads was a bonus and the cool water tubes. Like the history of it. -It did compete with std Adurns heads so they won the race on this car. Arduns is cool but a true flathead is to me more hot-rod and this is not 50’s its late 40’s and 4 carbs make it more easy than add a blower aswell and 4 carbs no blower is for me real hot-rod racing. Therefore I was down see it did not fit togheter. But I find a way here.
I have a pair of original Smith heads which are really rare according to the information I gathered and a note from Don Orosco. He reproduced them in the early 2000's. I'll try to post a pict
Interesting - these heads are a mismatched set (at least in my mind) as the fin patterns are not the same and the spark plug holes are in two different locations (one higher than the other).
B&S. Yes I see that now, my heads are the upper ones. Then to use 1 water inlet hole, well the hole is 5/8" and its 3 of them so I don't like the idea to just use the middle. ( what do you think ) But this cast water tubes is sooo cool. I'll just wonder on the 139 MPH record when they used this intake what heads they used ? As it can't be L&S heads ( or it is was methonol ( no water ) -Someone might has pictures or information ? One did like sell the intake here at Hamb before and said on a record, but I asked him but he did not know ( rumors maybe ) Another issue came up. Say I move up the carbs 2" but then the water inlet is 1/4" from carburator, but no housing can be there so I has to get ends longer or has a angle. I don't like the idea to modify the std tubes ( if etc another intake or blower they will be fine ) I has test now make pipes in a sharp angle and new water tubes but it aint easy. A question. Even if it narrow between the carbs can one move the gas linkage to oposit side on one carb ?
The Jalopy Journal
