Projects Late 60's Vintage Modified

Thanks!

Thanks! Getting the spiders to work was quite a little challenge, but it's better off now. There were about 4 welds holding it, 2 of them were cracked, one I don't think actually connected the two gears, and the other was the only real one still holding it together. Have you tried using an air chisel on yours? For getting through old rivets I've found the best way is to use a cut off wheel to get the head off, and then an air chisel to pop the rest out, or to use a torch to get the head off. But probably being with a rear differential the cut off wheel won't do so good...

Definately planning on having the car hand painted. There's a couple guys around that are real good with painting numbers, and one of them used to do all the local race cars back in the day. But I'd almost like to try and do it myself... I've done everything to this car except sandblasting and adding two water necks to the radiator, so it'd be kind of nice to learn how to do that too.

I'll definately check into that, thanks. With the bowl overflowing, would I see gas leaking out around the gaskets too? The base of the carb has been wet after running it, not quite sure where it's leaking from... The oil is real black for only running a little bit, and seems really "thin" for being fresh. Can't quite tell if it has a real bad gas odor or not..

 

A wet carb base is fuel dripping out along the throttle shaft bushings, a sure sign of a leaking needle and seat and or incorrect float level. A wet air horn to float bowl gasket is a pretty good indicator of the same. Or those carbs are pretty sensitive to fuel line pressure. Should be about 3 to 4 psi max. or it will over power the float/needle and seat.

 

Shaun, I believe that car may have had an early version of a torque arm in the rear suspension. See the 2 areas on the side bell that are flat? The arm may have bolted on using those 2 bolts, and run up to the crossmember where those 2 mystery holes are (I see you already had the trans attached by a different mount). It was probably just a big piece of flat plate cut to fit under the floor. Something like a cruder version of this with a swivel at the front mount.

As is sits right now, you have nothing to restrain axle rotation when you apply torque to the rear end. The radius rods you added are too high for that, and the "slider" bolts won't handle it. Hope this helps.

 

Thanks for the tips! The carb base is definately wet so there's some problem... I'm runnig the old stock fuel pump so there shouldn't be much of an issue with fuel pressure right? Have to look into the needle and seat and the float, or look into a rebuilt carb some time..

Thank you for the insight. Originally I don't think there was any sort of bracket... Other then the motor and trans, the car was pretty much untouched after it gone done racing (probably due the broken slider bolt), and there were no remains of any piece like that... But they set up the suspension pretty crudely so it's not really a surprise. Do you have any recommendations for how to deal with this?? The flat bar you described would be fairly easy to make up it sounds... The old flathead won't be doing many burnouts, and probably won't see too many miles on the road so I doubt it will have to be rediculously heavy duty..

 

Shaun have you solved the gear issues in the rear?..if not I have an aftermarket set of gears (complete cluster) in the low 5 range that might help...have no use for them at the moment...located in Maine. I've done 6 of these old cars....Steve Pellerin

 

Been kind of giving the old car a little bit of a break for the past couple weeks. Sometimes you just have to step away from it a little bit and take a breather. Picked up an older GMC pickup for cheap that I've been dubbing with some to keep my mind off it.

Decided today I had better get back into it... Drove it some more and then drained the water out so I can change the water pumps and mess with one of the radiator hoses, and possibly raise the motor up some in the front to help with exhaust routing.

Still having troubles with the carb... Today it seemed like it went through a quart of gas within about 5-10 minutes. Mostly idling (though a slightly high idle). Checked the float twice, and even changed the needle and seat for a new one, but it's still sucking gas. Does the old flatty really need that much gas to idle?? Saw some slight leaks around the top gasket and the throttle shaft bushing, but nothing substantial...

Also have to add in my recommendation to anyone looking for old Ford parts to go to Joe's Antique Auto Parts (http://joesantiqueauto.com/). I'm beyond impressed with this outfit, especially after dealing with Mac's with their slow and rediculously expensive shipping. Local Ford guy recommended them and I couldn't be happier. Called them up yesterday about 2PM and my order showed up today by 11AM. They're only 1 state away, but still! That's some awsome service right there. Guy was real helpful on the phone, sent a free catalog, and informed me that the price of a pair of water pumps had gone down from $160 to $125, which certainly didn't hurt my feelings!

I put the rear all back together, but the ring gear had some decent size pitting on a couple of the teeth. Everything works like it should driving round the yeard so I guess I did something right there haha. Will definately keep that in mind though, thank your for the offer. Happen to know how many different ratios they made for a Timken A150?? I know the older ones had some options, but not many around here even recognize this rearend....

 

Shaun, I believe this is one of the pics you are looking for



Ernie Bodreau's #211 is in front, and at the rear is Harold Stone's #206. Somewhere in the middle could be your #210.

 

Wow, thank you for that picture! I've heard at least a few guys reference that photo, but no one could ever find a copy of it and I'm greatful someone found it! I have asked Ernie Bodreau about the car and he said he didn't remember the one I have...

The paint that was on the car DID have some yellow to it though. I wasn't sure if it was faded red or if it was really yellow at some point. Some of the red looked like it was sort of splashed on, or maybe out of an aerosol can. I'll have to go back in my pictures and look...

But again, I thank you greatly for that photo!

 

So I've been staring at the above photo for a little while now and I just can't make a call if this car is in there or not... The only possible one would be the second car in, that's hidden the most. It would be the right numerical order (going from 211 down to 206), but it just really looks like a 3 window coupe instead of a 5 window coupe. But of course it's not the best line of view...

I see the date on the photo is May of '68. This is a reasonable time frame... I've got solid proof from an old Claremont brochure that in either '69 or '70 Bill O'Brien raced it at Claremont. Would it really be possible for there to be a second number 210 in such a short time frame?

This photo kind of shows where the red looks "splashed" on:



The hood looks different in the pictures, but who knows that could have changed at any time... Also the black top on my car could have been added later too.

Also never really noticed it, but the top did have some yellow to it.... Wether it's paint, or just some sort of mold etc from sitting I'm not sure.



But then again under these numbers it looks red..... So I don't really know what to think!

 

So yesterday I dug out all the records my Dad has on Claremont (probably should have done that a year ago). Anyways, an older guy who's big on vintage racing photo copied almost all of the articles from 1968-1971 on Claremont Speedway and the race results from each week.

So starting in '68, the number 210 is listed numerous times for placing in heats and consulations races and one feature. This is under the name of Ron Kisler. And judging by the photo that was provided and being dated May of '68, his car must be the one hidden. I've gotten his phone number, but apparently him and his wife have seperated recently... And so she wasn't real friendly on the phone today. No idea where he's living now, but it seems she's got the house...

I've shown the picture to a couple Ford guys and they both said that it's a '33 or '34 Ford roofline, and firewall. Just can't really tell if its a 3 window or 5 window.... You can also see a flat hood in the picture. Now when I got mine it had sort adapted car hood, BUT there were a set of old hood hinges that didn't go to anything, so that's kind of a clue as well.

After '68 Ron Kisler's name doesn't appear in any of the articles. And 210 doesn't show up until the very end of the '69 season with a guy named Dick Martell out of Windsor Vt.

There were two listings in '70 both in June. The first was by a Francis Perry out of Windsor VT and the second was again Dick Martell out of Windsor VT. I've looked through all of our Claremont brochures and there's no mention of those names with 210. For 1970 it's listed at William O'Brien Jr. out of Westmoreland. There wasn't any mention of O'Briens name in the newpaper articles, but maybe he just owned the car and they drove it? Or he might have bought it mid-season... Either way for the final points of '70 the number 210 has 30 points, which I wouldn't think would carry over from the first drivers if O'Brien bought it during the middle of the season.

In '71 there was no newpaper mention of 210 winning or placing in any race, but the name William O'Brien Sr. out of Claremont was listed in the brochure. And for the final point standings of 1971 there was not 210 on there.

I really can't tell from the photo, but I almost want to say it's a 3 window in the picture. I suppose it's a possibility, but how likely is it for a '33 or '34 coupe with the number 210 to race in '68 and then a completely different '33 coupe with the same number 210 race the next year, all located in the same general area, and race at the same track.....

So I guess the mystery continues until I can get a hold of Ron Kisler and find out if he had a 3 window or 5 window... That'll solve a big part of the mystery then.

 

In that old pic of the yellow cars, I believe you can see the door edge line right in front of the character molding where the roof meets the body. I think it's a 3W...

 

Cool project, you are doing an awesome job!

 

That's sort of what I'm afraid of... Then I'll be back at square one for history...

Thanks for the kind words!

 

So today was quite a day on the old car, but not really in physical progress but with finding out the true history of the car.

Based on the photo Hotrodlarry posted, I dug through old articles and found the name of the guy that raced with that club called the "Sidewinders". I talked to the guy's wife (or possibly ex-wife, not sure on that story) who remembered the car. She had alot of good information, but I really wasn't completely sure it was that car. She asked for pictures, and I e-mailed her some as I found it and how it looks now, but never got a response. But like I said earlier, and as exwestracer thought, it looked like more of a 3 window from the picture. After asking the wife how many windows she thought it had she replied 2. So I was more skeptical about this being the car...

So I decided to do some research on the other names I had found in the old Claremont Daily Eagle clippings; Dick Martell and Francis Perry. Well, I managed to find an Alfred "Dick" Martell in Claremont. Called his house a couple times, no answer. On the 3rd try he picked up. After a quick hello I ask "This may be a little out of the blue... But did you use to race at the Claremont Speedway a while ago?". Yup, he sure had, a long time ago he said.

I asked him a few questions about the car to see if he remembered owning it or being involved with it. Pretty soon it became apparent he not only remembered my car, but he was actually the one that originally built it and raced it most of the time. He remembered the number, the color scheme, even asked me if it still had the flathead in it. When I told him it didn't, he said it was too bad it was a good motor, had 3 3/8" bore and 4" stroke. I was pretty amazed he remembered that off the top of his head after over 40 years of not even seeing the car. I told him I'd love to come over some afternoon and visit about the old car and he said he was usually around most of the time and he'd like to talk about his old car.

Of course I had to shove off a few things, but I managed to rush over there this afternoon. Boy am I glad I did. I learned a wealth of information about the ol car, more then I had learned in the past 6 monts about it's history. I learned where he found the body, who he bought it from, where he got the frame (which turns out it's actually a '36 Ford truck frame), all kinds of history. He was a welder/fabricator by trade which explains all of the real nice welds, especially compared to some of the welds on the old jalopies that raced back then. I asked him about the "Sidewinders" and Ron Kisler's 210 but he hadn't ever heard of the club or that guy, and that he definately didn't have anything to do with them.

Like all old racers, him and his brother tried their own tricks to get an edge on the competition. The motor was an 8BA that had been bored out and sounded like it had a Merc crank. He went way up into northern Vermont to buy a set of Canadian aluminum heads, an intake to run 3 deuce's and the Mallory Magspark ignition set-up. He said that was pretty expensive back then... About $100 for the whole set up. He asked about the flathead I had in it, and he said you would know if it had been the same flathead because he welded his initials ARM right into the front of the block. He remember that Frank "Stroker" Smith had helped him to set up the car, and motor, and also got the rearend from him. Probably a few members might remember Stroker.

Aside from off the shelf parts, he also gave his brother the stock distributor to mess with. His brother worked with airplanes, and apparently they fused some sort of aircraft distributor top to it (he said it was like a flat round disk... almost sounds like a magneto?), but he said it ran real hot after that. So they tried to make their own mixture of fuel to help. He said they'd mix alcohol and shoe polish in with gas to help, but that they never did get the mix quite right. He said they also tried running airplane tires on it one night. He said he guessed they worked alright, but whoever was running the car at the time wasn't paying attention and there wasn't enough air in the tires and it ended up flipping over.

The car had been changed some since he had sold it though. He ran a full hood on the car, original to the body and with the lift up sides. He hadn't seen the side bars that went up to the radiator support. He also said they used a Volkwagen seat originally, and said he knew they didn't weld the seat to the floor like the one that was in it. Also when he had, they had a transverse spring on the rearend, not the homemade 2 link suspension like it has now, however he did say that was the original rear end he had in it and remembered welding the spiders. Someone else also added the wheel adapters on the back because he had always run regular 8 lug rims on it, and didn't remember any of the homemade rims that were left on the car.

One thing he didn't remember was the name of the guy he sold it too. He knew it was a father and son who bought it though, which would explain why the driver rosters list both William O'Brien Jr. and Sr. He said the son was hot to get it, so he gave them a price on the car without the motor, a price with the motor, and a price with all of the extra parts. They ended up buying the car, motor, and every part he had. He seemed to think it was about $800 they paid for everything. He thought they may have raced it at the Monadnock Speedway as well as Claremont.

Unfortunately he didn't have any pictures of the car handy. He thought he had one hanging over his work bench in his garage, but when we went out there it was missing and he thought maybe one of his son's had taken it. He did say he had some photos but he'd have to go through a big box to find them. But I left him my address and phone number and he said when he finds them he'll send them over, and I told him if he's over my way to come and see the car.

Whew! Sorry for such a long-winded post, but just had to share this history. Probably alot of it doesn't mean much to those not firmiliar with Claremont (and I'm not sure how many will actually read the novel above!), but hopefully someone else will enjoy reading the history of the car. Glad I've finally found some concrete history for it, and don't have to track down the numerous other leads, names, info, etc, etc.

One of my favorite parts of today: When I was first on the phone with him, and he listed off the year and body style, I told him "I think I own your old race car!" He chuckled a little and replied "It's not my car anymore, its your car!"

 

Pretty cool you found him.

 

Nice!

 

Glad you got some History on the Old car --Now go make some NEW History with your car.

If you get back over to Buddy's tell them " Hot Dog " said Hi!

 

Thanks for all the pics and progress reports! You've inspired me to get busy on my old 37 coupe stock car. Always looking forward to more pics and progress on yours. Love the flattie!

 

That car in the condition you found it in with the screen over the radiator & windshield area looks like it's spent some time on the dirt. If you want to fill in the blanks about what happened to it after Mr Martell got rid of it you might hang around up at the old Pines Speedway in Wentworth and the Canaan dirt track and talk to the old guys. Look for any of the Moses clan up around Rumney & Canaan and they might know something. It wouldn't surprise me if one of them remembers the car. I used to own a few dirt cars that we raced up that way and alot of those guys are still around. A good many of the old modified coupes got turned into 6 cylinder "Sportsman" class cars and were still racing up until a few years ago. Also stop in at Lanes on Rt 106 in Loudon just down the road from NHMS and get friendly with those guys. Last time I was out back in their junkyard (many years ago) there were some old modifieds slowly sinking back into the ground. Stop in at Andover Auto Wrecking & talk to the owner Walt Locke & show him some pics. Dave Richardson in Alexandria has a pretty big stash of old modified stuff including quick change stuff, axles, etc. Make friends with Harold at Sanel Auto Parts in Concord. You will never deal with another pimple faced kid behind a parts counter again who only knows how to punch stuff into a computer. Pop into Fadden Racing behind the NAPA store in North Haverhill and ask questions about the old days. This is where Frank Stoddard who owns the #32 Cup team got his start. They know a little about racing.. Hope this helps..

 

Glad to hear I've given someone inspiration like that! Just like any old car, they've got their challenges, but they're worth it in the end!<O</O

<O</O
Thanks for such the helpful, detail response NHBandit! The car definately raced on dirt all it's life, that I know. But from what I've learned, it lived it's life in the Southern part of NH mostly, and ran at Claremont, Monadnock, and once at the Rutland VT Fairgrounds, and possibly once at Bradford VT. My Dad and my Uncle are actually pretty good friends with John and Royal Moses... I asked them about the William O'Brien and the number 210, and John seemed to remember the name but not alot else. My Dad actually has one of John's old cars, and also has John Bucklin's 34 that raced at Rumney if you remember that one.
<O</O

I have not heard of Lanes, so I will have to check into that. Funny you mention Walt... I live one town over in Wilmot, and have gotten to know Walt pretty good over the past couple years. It's always a good time to go down and visit him... Have to go get him some time and bring him to see our collection. We've invited him several times, but for some reason he won't stop in.
<O</O

I have not heard of Dave Richardson before... Will have to check into him. I know a few vintage Ford guys around, but haven't found alot with vintage stock car parts still kicking around, especially from the flathead days. And I'll have to keep that in mind about Harold at Sanels haha... One friend seems pretty close with him so it would be a good place to go for parts. There's a guy at our local Napa who used to help a race crew back in the 70's at Claremont, and he's been a huge help between my car and all of my Dad's. When you bring in a bucket full of parts from various makes, models, and who knows what year, you aren't met with "Well what year does it fit??" you're met with a guy who digs through every old parts book he can find in order to track down that one piece.

I have not been to Fadden Racing, but I will have to stop the next time I'm in North Haverill. Was Napa right on the main road on the left if you were coming into town from the south? I think it was also a pizza place at some point.... Last time I went through there (about a month ago) there was actually a race shop in there now. Don't know if it was Fadden's though. Funny you mention Walt Locke earlier... He's actually got one of Stub Fadden's old car, in the original hauler made out of an old school bus.

Anyways, thanks for all the great advice! Will definately have to check into those other people...<O</O

 

Lately I've been sort of discouraged looking at the chassis (you have to admit... it is pretty ugly looking with no body on it...). So I was able to move it out into the other part of the building, so now I can start to work more on the body now.



Been trying out my new Christmas present....



My plans for the body are pretty simple. I want to fix all the rust, and I want to get out most of the major dents on the body. What I don't want to try and do is make this into a flawless body. I've seen plenty of guys working on these old stock cars making the bodies as close to perfect as they can, but that's not what I'm after.

Sure I want it to look good, but I still want something that has "character". Planning to paint it like it was (the red and black with silver numbers/trim), but don't want anything too fancy. After all, it was originally painted with barn paint!

As for the cutouts at the bottom of the body where the nerf bars attached to the frame/roll cage, I think I'm going to take the old peices and add some extra sheet metal to the back of them that go off on the sides. Then I can drill holes in the body + the panels and pop rivet them on. That way, if I ever need to, I can remove the body from the chassis without really disturbing the rest of the body and paint. Certainly not high tech or the most visually appealing option, but it'll be pretty low on the car ad I'll paint the rivets as well to hide them.

Picked up a pair of 6.50x16 bias ply tires for the back that were like new for $55 and some old trailer tires I wasn't using. Have 2 stock wide 5 rims so I'll get them mounted soon and see how they look. Still have to figure out what to do for tires on the front... Want to run smaller tires in the front, just not sure on size.

 

Nothing to exciting to share... Just more body work.

At first it didn't seem this car had ever been rolled over... But the original builder seemed to think it rolled over about three times once when they didn't have enough air in the airplane tires they were experimenting with, and now I'm starting to believe him! Dents all over the place on the roof. There was a pretty good hit over the door hinge area on the roof, and the roof seems to have been pushed downwards- it overlaps the top of the door, enough to where the door could never have opened after the damage.

Bodywork's not perfect by any definition, but I think it'll turn out pretty nice for this old jalopy...

Boy I hate block sanding!

 

cool man! glad you found the info. it be cool to find a color picture of it. i think i mentioned earlier about that rear crossmember, now it just confirms it! most likely ran the banjo, and they either machined the axles to fit in the housing, or made adapters to bolt onto the banjo axles(instead of the keyway drum/hub). those rear axles are pretty easy to find if you wanted to use one. as far as the canadian heads, i think they did make 24 bolt heads. ask him if he remembers if they were center hoses or front hoses. if they are the earlier center hose heads, all you gotta do is block off one hole on the side of the block behind the dizzy.

magneto maybe Lycoming IO-720 Magneto 8 cylinder Zee Jay, just machine a base.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lycoming-IO...0731040&pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&vxp=mtr

 

While I am sure the gentleman who built the car would have mentioned it but is he related to Jim Martell and the Martell's of NE supermodified fame? If so one of them posts on the HAMB I believe as "meangrinch".

Good luck with the car, those old modifieds were neat racers.

 

I may keep an eye out for a banjo rear in case this 3/4 ton doesn't pan out. Would like to keep the homemade 2 link suspension, but have not been able to track down the builder of it. The guy that built it originally didn't know anything about it... Not sure what he did to the banjor rear when he first built the car. It sounded like he ran whatever rearend that came with the frame when he got it, but he split the wishbones (he remembered the brackets that were still on the frame, that weren't being used when I got it). Must have had open driveline, or converted when he went to the 3/4 ton rear.

As for the heads, when I asked him he said that they were finned, which I think all the factory Canadian heads were pretty much identical to the cast iron ones. He wasn't too positive that they were made in Canada, just that he had to go close to the border to buy them. Could always paint my cast heads to imitate the Canadian heads for now, would look kind of neat.

He said somehow they grafted a distributor base/shaft onto an airplane mag, but he wasn't involved in the actual making of it. Would still be a cool peice to have on it.... Almost wish I could make some sort of "Fake" magneto cover for the distributor, but then again the coil would sort of give that away.

He mentioned that two grandsons were pretty active in racing at Claremont. I beleive he said that one won the championship this past season... No idea what class it was though. Didn't make any mention of Jim Martell though... Could be no relation at all.

 

Well, last day of winter break, back to college tomorrow. Fortunately I had some time to work on the ol jalopy...

I managed to pick up a pretty decent windshield frame off of Craigslist, only two towns over for $100. I think I did pretty good on it. The only real bad place was on one of the bottom edges by where the bracket slides in. Had to drill out the screws (of course) to get it apart, but amazingly I didn't break the glass taking it apart (its already cracked, but at least I didn't have to pick up off the floor if it had shattered!) and now I've got a good template to have another made.

I'm sure someone's done it before, so is there any good way to mount the windshield solid to the car? I don't have any of the hinges/brackets, so I was planning on making some brackets to make it stationary, but not glued in place like newer ones. I think it's safe to say this car will have plenty of ventilation without a hinged windsheild







Also had a chance to tackle some of the bodywork I've been putting off... The cowl vent area had seen better days... Must have had pine needles sitting in there or something for quite a while...



I managed to cut too much off of the donor panel so I screwed up the gap on the front, but I think it turned out alright. My first real time tying to patch in a donor piece in the middle of a panel like that.





Got some more grinding to do, but all in all I'd say it looks pretty good.

 

Wow, awesome work! I would have written that chassis off completely. Very good save.

 

Thanks for the kind words, for any application other then this old jalopy the frame certainly would have been pretty much useless (aside from maybe the front crossmember), but I think now that I've got it fixed up it'll work out fine for this project.

 

So after getting the cowl vent patched in, one of the "big" rusty area to deal with was in the upper windshield lip. At first I tried to weld up some fo the pin holes, but it became apparent pretty quite that it needed to be cut out and replaced......







The bottom overlap of the lip originally had rivets and a few spot welds to hold it in place. Course that type of rivet reall wasn't an option for me, so I decided to drill some holes every couple inches and then plug weld it. I think it turned out pretty good... Still got some welding to do and start grinding, but this was all I could get to this afternoon.

 

bubbas ignition in indiana? can make you a base for the airplane mag. ive seen the canadian aluminum heads at swaps and on the internet. they looked like stock heads, which they wanted to do. i believe that on the modifieds you were only allowed certain mods, and you could take the canadian heads and grind the markings off of the head and paint them, and the inspectors were none the wiser.