Well, I hope you woke up in a better mood.. Although I'm guessing not. The question wasn't necessarily about Nascar per se, but about what parts are used to make high power, high revving engines that last for hours at 10,000 RPMs. Engine longevity is a pretty "traditional" problem. I asked the question because I'm looking to build a high revving small displacement engine for landspeed use. As for bringing NASCAR into the conversation. These are the guys that have been doing precisely that for years (Since 48 if I remember correctly -yeah, a "tradition") Sorry the word NASCAR pissed you off, but most car enthusiasts can look past the word and see that these are damn good engine builders. Sorry, I dont think it is off topic at all. See attached "traditional" photo
Chaz The entire matter is beyond your range of understanding or you would not have asked the question in the first place. And if you think high reving and land racing have anything to do with eachother you've a bike or go-kart Are you going after the French Tri-cycle record?
They can buy the strongest bottom-ends, for the high RPM; for them a good investment, actually, a necessicity. As a nearly "constant speed/variable noise device" (famous quote) they can accept a very narrow powerband; high @ desired range, $#!+ elseware. You would not enjoy this on the street!
You're probably right Bluto, but like most guys at the salt "I've got this theory" Big HP motors and weight seem to be the standard, but there are exceptions. The Burklands and the "saltosaurus" are two examples. Traction is the big problem as I see it. Four wheel drive and front wheel drive seem to be making inroads into big HP /big weight theories. All that being said, we'll probably fall on our face, but that's what Bonneville is all about, eh?
so, are you saying chaz isn't capable of learning? i guess we all wern't born with the knowledge like YOU were...
Worthy questions Chaz. Never saw the person that didnt ask questions get smarter. Have seen some dumb*** questions tho............ I think you guys are going to make some people take notice out there.
Make no mistake about it. I bow to Bluto on all things automoive. That guy is absolutey the best. Nothing but respect from me. If you're talkin , Bluto, I'm listening! Bonneville to me is about checking out your work in a friendly/compe***ive atmosphere. There are certain laws of physics that most guys out there fly in the face of. Successfully though I may add. It would stand to reason to me that the heavier the car the more horsepower is needed to achieve speed. Go figgure. Most teams ADD weight. I suspect that this is done to gain bite and stability. 4WD and FWD cars can solve part of this problem if our theory holds water. (we'll see)
i'm starting to have "Salt" fantasies myself! the secret, as i see it, is to put a 1 000 HP bottom end under an 800HP top end. (or relatively so). the 'long course' is looooong indeed @ full whack! beyond ~1KHP/300MPH tracion is of the essence! 4WD is probably req'd.
the parts are avail. I had a set of pontiac,read chevy, heads,and intake off of a winning combo. it cost lots but not what it would cost to develope. those parts helped me make 685 hp off of a sbc.
So how would anybody know there HP claims are accurate in the first place? Obviously the top fuel claims are just hype ... I would think that most of the high tec. machining and materials used are for making the endurance motor live. Sure they need to make all the HP they can but how much can they possibly be making with the CFM restrictions they are strapped with, id think thats the question.
I have seen ex-NASCAR SB2s dynoed at over 820 hp without the trick manifolds headers and carbs the Cup teams use. Having said that, the BIG hp numbers are likely obtained with "optimized" combinations that aren't actually raced. This is common in the development process as engine builders will come up with a package that won't last a race distance in order to learn things that will apply to raceable engines. The same rules apply to NASCAR, F1, etc. They are trading HP for torque and powerband width. The high rpm combo might have some merit at Bonneville as the relative "lack" of torque could help traction until the car gets going good. Chaz, you got a 7 speed box to put behind that engine???
somewhere recently i was reading about a 2000hp (or in that neighborhood) totaly streetable Chevy V8. it was a thuroughly modern engine with turbos and injection but DAMN! how do you knock 2000 streetable horsepower??? it got my attention.... point is, were there is a will there is a way. good on you Chaz for asking the questions.
Actually, what we are looking for is a 600-650 HP smallblock Chevy capable of turning 7,500 RPM for a long time. We'd rather take a hit up front and pay for the best stuff to do this than have to rebuild the engine regularly. I'm not looking for 800 HP at 10,000 RPM, but I would like the RELIABILITY those guys achieve. Thats why I'm curious about what the NASCAR guys run for internals.
Chaz I admit I was getting you attention. But you knew that. The rest of you offended cry-babies can ****-off Year after year I have seen people try to run a new trick set-up in all kinds of racing. My take on land racing is that people make way too much power, peak too early ........ drive far too far at too high RPM and hurt the motor. It's not fun to watch. Your a lot better off not trying to do it all in the first mile. Sure and steady is the way to go and get faster every time.
Hey Chaz, if there's a sprint car track in your area go down there and pick some brains. Alot of the high end parts in a NASCAR engine are similar to what goes into a high end 360 or 410 engine. These guys turn big rpm night after night, making 700+. There's been some pretty trick stuff rolling around out there. CNC lightened blocks, big dollar cranks (Bryant's etc), big dollar rods (Carillo's), ultra lightweight pistons, roller cams running on roller bearings, geardrives, CNC machined cylinder heads as much as the rules allow loaded with ***anium. If someone wants to turn big rpm, they spend the money on the lightest, and strongest roatating ***embly they can buy. Just go do some poking around, visit some engine builder's websites (Shaver, Wes-Mar, etc) and look at what they put into engines. Most of the time it's not cheap tho... I'm not saying I'm totally right, just my take on it. Have fun...
I agree with this logic. At Bonneville you've got 2 miles to get to speed for the 3rd mile and that's where the timing is done, the middle mile. Gearing will do as much for you as power will provided you've got the power to deal with the drag and the gearing.
There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers. Cool topic. Obviously roundy-round racing has lost it's roots, but that wasn't the question, was it? I like old cars as much as the next guy, but I'm not blinded by my own interests. I can talk to a tuner, a 'wheeler, or any other car or bike junkie because we share enough of the same addiction, even though I think tuners are ugly, 'wheeling is a waste of sheetmetal, and bikes are played out. Of course these are opinions. And I'm a grown man, so spending my time worrying about what does and doesn't fit inside my personal insular set of traditional rules seems like an utter waste of ****ing time. What do you think the rodders of yester-year would think about message boards, or the internet? Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell, traditional hotrodding is--and was--about going fast, building different, learning, helping, and sharing the good times with others.
I dont know about Nascar but I have an engine we built for my car (not hamb material its a 69 charger) that has 600 HP, will sit idling in traffic all day at 800 rpm and will also do 140 MPH for as long as you want it to on the freeway, will do a 12.9 in thge quarter mile as well. Its my daily driver. and the whole thing runs on pump gas. the engine is solid as a rock. the combo? a 440 h-p block, original ductile rockers, original crank,line bored, balanced the entire lower ***embly incl the clutch, matched and ported aluminum heads and intakes and a SINGLE (this is the key) hi volume mechanical double pump carb.mech oil pump,mech fuel pump,old Hemi stuff,26 inch hemi radiator, 7 bladed viscous fan.lots and lots of oil, oversize pan and oil filter. MSD ignition. I did not spend big big money and theres nothing exotic about the build at all I just made the bottom end bulletproof, spent some time on the heads and provide lots and lots of oil and water. everyone gets all zany with weird multi carb setups and so on.if you want a rock solid hi performance engine for a wide range of use, make it as simple as possible and do a super-sano ***embly.
What is the cubic inch limit of your cl***? Cubic inches, RPM, and $$ all contribute to HP. More of one means less of the others to get to any given HP goal. You obviously don't care about streetability for a Land Speed car. Big block Caddy's can make over 600 HP on pump gas. There are Modified guys around here that get several seasons out of mid-high 500 HP range small blocks without anything all that special. It just depends on what exactly you want to accomplish and what the limitations are. Most sprint cars are in the 600 - 800 HP range (across several cl***es), without nearly the budget of Nascar, but also without the CFM limitations. If you are trying to do it in one of the vintage cl***es, we've built a '55 Caddy block to well over 500 HP. Still talking flat tappet cams (instead of a roller), vintage multi carb intake (instead of mechanical injection or a sheetmetal tunnel ram), hot rod level head work (as opposed to race type port work), etc. I think 650 is possible, but it would be pricey. Probably close to $50 per HP. It's nice to talk about the cool tricks Nascar uses, but without the million dollar parts and machining budgets, those are 400 HP engines on a good day.
Please remember B'ville is way up in the SKY. The air is really far apart and the HP rules all change.
You didn't explain yourself very well at the start of all this. Now your going to Bonneville and you want an average of 625 H-P ???? >>>>.
There was a post in the last week or two about short stroke motors. I seem to recall that a 307/327 Crankshaft will get you to 7500 rpm (With balance and radiused journals). The 327 crank in a 400 block is a good combination. I'd pay a visit to Mooresville next month and see what deals are to be had on a rotating ***embly at least. When it's time to do the heads, be able to tell your machinist what RPM range you are aiming for. Start shopping for a good machine shop if you don't already have one.
Here's some photos and technical about the current "Chevy small block" used by Nascar. Might look a little like the newer Chevy LS smallblocks here and there.I think the last production based engines used in Nascar was the early 1980's? http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0803_chevy_nascar_engine/photo_02.html
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