Let's see your roll cages and safety features

I have a small portable extinguisher in the car between the front seats and 4kg in the trunk!
If you ever put out a decent fire with an extinguisher you'd know that the little ones are next to useless!
Doc

 

Thank you for posting those photos. I printed them out and will be looking at them really hard when I build the roadster project I have in mind for "some day"

 

First thing we put in the Merc before taking it for the first drive.
Ol Blue

 

I prefer a single hoop like Slags in ANY open car tho C9s looks good as well. Most of us are not trying to meet NHRA Tech but simply want a lil more between us and the lane changer next to us.

 

Roll bar in my A roadster and rear bumper.

 

A good rule of thumb is that rollbars and cages in street cars are dangerous....more so in a closed car rather than an open one. The bar is a non-yielding parts that is in close proximity to your skull. Yeah, you might survive a roll-over but when that little old lady doesn't see your dim vintage Pontiac brakelights mounted way down low on the rear pan and slams you at 20mph and makes your skull look like it went through the Veg-A-Matic then thats not a good scene. There really isn't enough room in smaller coupes/pick-ups to safely run a 'legal' bar that is far enough away from your head unless your a shorter dude.

Open cars? I think bars are a great idea but.......If your going to run bars and cages in street cars (read: your not wearing helmets at the same time) then you really want to make sure that your head is as far away from the roll bar as possible and make sure that the bar has plenty of padding on it regardless of how dorky it looks.

-Bigchief.

 

...and use true SFI-approved padding...not the $3.50/length cheap shit...(which isn't designed to BE roll bar padding)...unless, that is, you figure your head is only worth $3.50.

 

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh,..........BULLSHIT! Might be a good axiom in a 50s, 60s or 70s car but we are talking Ts, As, 32s etc...............ANYTHING that adds some beef to tin and wood is a good thing! I would rather have a single hoop slowing down a side impact in an A Tudor than to just let that door wood splinter and fly into my kidney!

 

Indeed.

I'm inclined to agree that more structure is pretty much always better. Model A's don't have crumple zones (or rather, the entire car is a crumple zone), so I don't see how adding structure would ever make them less safe than they were stock.

And honestly, if you build a cage like you ought to (IE right out against the skin), you're only the diameter of the tube closer to braining yourself than you were with just the body and substructure there. Crashing your melon into the body or door post of a Model A is not going to be any easier on your gray matter than doing the same against a cage tube. However, there are many instances where properly placed tubing can prevent injury.

I'll take my chances with being tragically killed by my own roll cage, which has just helped me survive a rollover. Better that, than just being tragically killed in the rollover.

Plus, properly designed and executed, it'll stiffen the chassis up like Drew Barrymore just walked by in the buff.

 

Ok,
I'm not a metal worker, but I've always wondered why builders of old cars haven't linked their rear roll bars / cages with their inner cowl cages (for steering, suspended pedals, etc.) thru their doors, hinges, jambs and latches?
If I could, I'd build an oval or rectangular safety loop of tube inside the doors that were tied to the hinges on one side and the bear claws on the other. Outside the doors, the bear claw mounting points and the door hinges would also be tied to the roll bar and cowl cages.
In essence, you would have an opening cage (at the doors) where the down tubes were hidden - running thru the doors via the hinges and latch points.
Seems to me this whould be very easy to do in a roadster or other windowless car, but more problematic in cars with regulators to work around. Too hard? Gary

PS... Dana are you coming to Tampa for the NSRA Nats this year?

 

I'm redoing my A coupe. Im trading in the supercharger for a 70mm turbo hidden under the passenger seat. after Driving it with the supercharger with 11 lbs of boost on the al. headed 383 with a manual I deside that I need a roll bar. It will be hidden as much as I can...... evey time I nail the loud pedal I see my daughters face...... I guess Im an old fogie.

 

Trent, Big Chief makes a valid point. An unpadded bar can do some serious damage to an unprotected skull. In a race car you have a helmet but most associations require padding as well. Ugly, Yes, but there for a reason. Bars below shoulder level are a different issue because you don't have the whipplash factor.

If a bar isn't completely above the occupants head, and they get rearended, the head snaps back into a very hard unyielding hunk of pipe.

 

Concur... and I've seen quite a few finely crafted pro-street rods and muscle cars with padded and then upholstered roll bars. Looks good and much safer. I once hit my unhelmeted head on a roll bar just getting in that fucking car and it hurt at zero mph. Gary

 

I'll even admit, one time i hit a pretty good bump in my old deuce and whacked the back of my head on the cross bar..had a pretty good headache after that.

 

Good points about the roll bar.
Choices are what they're about.
I chose rollover protection and a small bonus is a bit of side protection with the vertical down-tube.

Here's a few pics to give you an idea.
Note that the roll bar is fairly high so perhaps a rear impact won't get you since the forces usually go straight back on impact.



Along these same lines, a good rear view mirror is a great safety device . . . provided it ain't so cool and teensy that it's useless.
Been saved quite a few times from getting rear ended.
Yesterday as well, an old yuppie broad talking on the cell phone was PO'd that I had the audacity to stop at a red light she was gonna run.

Worst was when I had to nail it and get out into the intersection to get out of the way of the plumbing truck.

Note the view to the rear from my pal's 46.


The focus problem is the camera and not the mirror.
Not too bad, but it could be better - and I'm not suggesting West Coast jr. truck mirrors - there are mirrors out there that supply a larger view and still look good.

The 46 mirrors show in this pic and they're the typical size most hot rodders run.


Note the view in the mirrors on my 32.




The mirrors are Harley mirrors cut down and re-threaded 3/8-16 on the supplied factory mount rod.


They're not as glaringly obvious as seen in the pic because here you're looking for the mirrors.
Seldom are the mirrors commented on and my pal had the same experience with the same mirrors on his 29 roadster.

No drilling and tapping required on the windshield posts if they came with factory threaded holes as my 32 did.

When the 32 was first running I had a pair of 32 re-pro mirrors and they were good quality, but for the most part useless and still collecting dust on the shelf.


Here's a couple pics of the cockpit extinguisher.
Easy to get at and out of the way.



Another view


I think I can get a 10# extinguisher in the same place on the 31 roadster.
Just have to give it a try today....

 

C9,
You are so right about the mirrors. I got some of the fashionable swan necks for my 37. Fucking useless - same worthless mirrors as peeps have. Had to resort to those $2 plastic stick-on convex mirrors you get at Walmart to get some vis.

Lately I've been eye-balling Jeep mirrors, bike mirrors and even the old Euro rectangular door mirrors - Vitaloni baby turbos (http://www.talbotco.com/vitaloni_mirros.html ) for my 27 cab project. I had some on my old Fiats in college, great vis and they can be painted. Or dummy spots with mirrors on the back instead of fake lights.

And fire extinguishers HAVE to be inside the car with you for quick access! They are no good after an accident if they are trapped under a trunk lid that won't open. Gary

 

Great tips there Jay! The mirrors look good in place. I'll look up the "regs" as I'm curious about bar diameter and DOM/wall thickness for a roadster.

 

Catchin' up here, took me a bit to get the pics set up for the above post.

Anyway, you may have noticed the thin pad on the 32's roll bar in the post where the top is being lowered on part 1 of this thread.

It's solely to stop the window frame from rattling on the roll bar.
It won't help much in the banging your head dept.

A thicker pad may help, but if you take into account how crash helmets work and how they're constructed it's not the soft pad, but the firm almost hard foam padding between the soft pad - known as 'comfort padding' - and the outer shell.

Theory is, the comfort padding is just that.
Solely for comfort when wearing the helmet.
In a crash the outer shell may or may not rupture, that due to the severity of the blow.
The firm or hard foam declerates your head slower than concrete would and sacrifices itself to save you.

Compare it to an egg tossed off a building and another egg wrapped inside a soft foam cushion which decerates slower than the un-protected egg under the same conditions.

Pretty obvious stuff, but a real important part is to send the helmet back to the manufacturer who'll probably recommend you buy a new one.
An up and up mfg. will make recommendations based on safety and not profit.

Keep in mind that helmets deteriorate over time and they should be put aside after so many years.

I have a Bell Moto-X 3 that's been worn 3 times, never hit the ground no ben scratched, but it's been retired.
Construction of the new helmet is different and offers more protection.

Note that helmet diameter is larger overall than they used to be.

A litle Jack in the Boxish as it may, but I guarantee you won't mind when you're upside down and skidding along.

Been there, done that . . . lotsa weird noises....

 

Take a look at the J&P Cycles catalog.
Lots of mirrors that can be converted over for hot rod use.
Good outfit to deal with too.

Just ask and they'll send you their large x huge catalog.

Granted on the extinguisher location, but the trunk extinguisher is the 'loaner'....

 

Thanx, will do. Gary

 

If you're talking about NHRA or SCTA requirements, last I heard was 1 5/8" x.134 wall.
Maybe 1 1/2" x .134 is allowed in a cage, but I'm not sure there.

I chose 2 1/2" x .120 since my roll bar is only a 4-pointer.
Not sure how the strength compares to a 1 5/8" tube, but it's probably a lot stronger in a non-cage applicaton.

It can be difficult to get the larger diameter stuff bent up.
We sent mine to an oil field tubing place in Signal Hill, California - near Long Beach - but I'd bet any other oil patch area in Okahoma or Pennsylvania etc. would be able to bend it for you.

There's always the dry sand and heat trick.
Still done by Kent Fuller of chassis bending fame.

All you need is a jig and you're in business.

Both SamIyam and AV8 have posted diy's on bending tubing at home....

 

Forgot to mention . . . take a look at the taillight section.

Quite a few of them will bolt to the flat sheet metal areas of hot rods.

More than a few are very good looking and will leave people wondering where you got them.

Just tell em they're a 1938 Ferrari saloon (sedan) light and they'll be wondering.


Course, ya gotta watch it.
We used to tell people that little brothers drag race chopped Henry J was a 38 Bugatti and sometimes they'd walk away pissed and muttering bad words describing our utter idiocy.

Heck, if'n ya don't know what a Henry J is, you're in the wrong hobby....

 

Sometimes bars can save your life...sometimes they can take it. When it comes to putting a bar or cage in our rides we all have to make that decision for ourselves. Is there a chance we roll over or more of a chance get rear-ended at a light? Your decision, yours alone. A poorly designed bar or cage can kill you in either scenario if your head mashes into it. If your gonna build it though, keep it away from your noggin.
Not picking on you 41 C28 but this is a good example of a dangerous design in that any disturbance will likely place your head into those pipes.

Terry

 

Yes but If I were given the choice of getting Tboned WITH a bar or WITHOUT I would take the bar. Padding would be the least of my worries in that instance.

 

SCCA specs

The diameter and wall thickness of your bar will be determined by the weight of your car. A good starting point is 1.5 inches in diameter x .120 wall for cars under 1,500 pounds; alloy (chrome moly) could be 1.375 x .090 wall. For 1,500 to 2,500 pound cars 1.75 x .120 (mild) or 1.625 x .102 (alloy). For cars over 2,500 pounds consider 2.25 x .120 (mild) or 2.00 x .102 (alloy). These are the general SCCA specs which are more stringent that NHRA.

Here is what the NHRA says:

A roll bar is required in any convertible running 13.49 seconds or quicker in the quarter mile, and in other cars beginning at 11.49. The roll bar is accepted in vehicles running as quick as 10.00 second e.t., provided the stock firewall and floorboard is intact, other than for installation of wheel tubs. The rollbar must be constructed of minimum 1 ¾ inch o.d. x .118 inch wall mild steel tubing, or 1 ¾ x .083 chrome moly tubing, and must conform to the following diagram:
<TABLE align=center><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
If the floor and/or firewall has been modified, then a full roll cage is required beginning at a 10.99 e.t. A full roll cage is required in any vehicle running 9.99 seconds or quicker, and any vehicle running 135 mph or faster (regardless of e.t.). The roll cage must be constructed of minimum 1 5/8 o.d.x .118 mild steel tubing, or 1 5/8 x .083 chrome moly tubing, and must conform to the following diagram:
<TABLE align=center><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The roll cage of any vehicle running 9.99 or quicker, or 135 mph or faster, must also be certified by NHRA every 3 years, and have a serialized sticker affixed prior to participation.

 

Did the .134 wall rule go away?

I know that several years back NHRA started measuring thickness on the bends and found the outside diameter was down to .106 or so from the - at the time - rule of .120.

More than a few guys started sweating that one.
Especially so little brother and his pal, they'd both just finished up a caged door slammer and it looked like they would have to re-do some, if not all, aspects of the cage.

NHRA ended up grandfathering those cars in after the dust settled and they'd had more than a few comments about changing things mid-stream....

 

I'm thinking kinda like this for street use if you don't want to use a halo(s) for rollover protection... of course it's always worth considering. It also seems like a good way to mount a 4 point harness if you ask me. If your going to head to the track you may as well do it properly as the sanctioning body mandates. The post directly below this shows a well done setup i.m.h.o.

I've always been fond of the Porsche 550 Spyder... the way Vintage Spyders does the chassis and makes them is one company I've looked at over and over for idea's. Check out the chassis and impact protection. http://www.vintagespyders.com/gallery/index.htm






There's been far too many... "Someone ran into me in my hot-rod" threads in here lately for my taste buds. Maybe someone should start a "Show us your crashed hot-rod and injuries" thread.

 

Don't think a hot rod's ever really safe, but like many others I'm shocked at flimsy some cars are. #1 rule of construction on mine is NOT FLIMSY.

Roadster tub opening finished by hammering it over rollbar tubing contoured to fit. Downlegs on either side of the gas tank, bolted to frame pads under the floor. Heavy doorjamb plate.



More of the same forms the structure of the door. Bearclaw latches of course. Lately I've been wondering about deadbolt type mechanisms to help engage the doors positively to the jambs on both ends, independent of the bearclaws. Akin to a heavy duty topper door latch with a twist handle inside.



An under dash hoop just makes sense if you've got the space. Lots of places to mount things sturdily and great footwell crash protection



Cowl shake, what's that????

More beefy plate doorjamb and assorted supports that tie everything together. (vertical 1x1 is just tacked for fab, you don't have to step around it!)

Hot rods should be driven in anger, and this is a car that will withstand an angry touch. Seeing cars with unboxed frames, plywood floors, and OHV V8 power makes me cringe. (however cool they may be). Here's to hoping none of us ever need impact protection.

I can't claim credit for the fab, only the plan. These rollbar structure solutions cost the same as typical sheetmetal solutions, but yielded a far superior product IMO. You can lean on this car, hard, and it doesn't flinch. The body is amazingly rigid which gives it a high-end tactile quality you just can't accomplish any other way. Something to think about....

 

Track T's just gotta have some kind of roll bar. This one has some triangulation to make it even better.

Photo on next post......

 

Hit the wrong damn button....