Let's Talk Cyclecars

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Kume,​

Thank you on additional photos! I suppose that engine was smaller then original Model-T engine, but couldn't be sure for entire vehicle? Without people around, it is quite difficult to "guess" from photos, without some facts about dimensions and construction... Ford's Cycle-car looks almost as original Model-T, but must be simpler and something smaller, in spite that it is constructed as real automobile, not just rude cycle-car.

I am still wondering what was the use of such cycle-car: Edsel had fun with more serious automobiles, even when he was teenager (Henry still didn't have Henry the Second)...

Ciao,
Zoran​

 

P.S.: Anybody has sketch of Model-T rolling chassis with dimensions (metric if possible)?
Zoran

 

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Ned,
Good to get such information!
BTW, one cylinder of gargantuous Darracq would be enough for good cycle-car?
Zoran

 

I miss the contributions from him!

 

Ned, I think that you are worrying too much about something that only adds complication to the whole drive system. Lack of a diff was more of an asset (traction) than a detriment (tire wear) with a FN, and variation of chain slack has never been a factor in motorcycles, where the center of the suspension movement is close, but hardly concentric with the drive sprocket. Getting 6 speeds sounds worthwhile, at least 4 and an overdrive ratio, but will require some thought as to the design modification to the plate with the arc shaped slots (the ''wiggly monkey'') that not only locks the selected set of dogs in place, but also prevents having two ratios engaged at once.

Herb

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Hello Paul, Rolfzoller and Ned!​

I am really glad that some of members start to build their light motorised vehicles, on 3 or 4 wheels. Maybe there are some more, but are silent? (of course, not to forget on Ade and his marvelous Jappic racer) I remember that a lot time ago, there were a few announcements of projects, but was shouted up by some active (on words) members... It was long time ago, but this magnificent thread was started as idea for building of modern cycle-car?

Therefore, all information about new projects, including photos and sketches should be welcomed! All of us enjoy in picture-books, but they are even more interesting and valued if they are about projects of our members! Morganesque cycle-cars, or daredevil GN/FN – excellent inspiration for builders and old love for all other...

As was said, probably adding differential for GN clone should be unnecessary complication... But, as was said it could be installed at one of the wheels? At least, Henry Ford did that for his first automobile – Quadricycle, the same as my friend Stu from Australia for his replica of Quadricycle...

Photos attached (maybe could be useful for somebody).

Regards,
Zoran​

 

P.S.: Watching photos and sketch again, I think that Henry's differential (and Stu' replica) shouldn't be good for GN/FN without some reconstruction?

Zoran​

 

Hi Herb

As always I'm trying to expand the performance envelope of the GN/FN concept. The question of why not to go for another concept entirely is another matter, so I won't go into it.

The absence of a differential was an asset because of the limited grip afforded by tyres at the time. If we were to increase available tyre grip - and simultaneously add a substantial amount of power - we'd reach and then pass a point where the advantages of having a diff equal the disadvantages. So I think incorporating a diff (or something equivalent) would be advantageous if one could pull it off.

The problem with the chains is not variation of centre distance over travel, but angular misalignment as in roll. The very stiff suspension of a FN doesn't allow enough travel for more than perhaps 1½° of roll, which is already pushing the twist capacity of a chain set slightly. The interlink system I mentioned would generally limit roll overall to the same sort of range but, due to near-free articulation in warp, we might see anything up to 6-7° of roll deflection at the axle. The pivoting subframe is a fairly simple fix: effectively putting a hinge in the frame, though it's a specific sort of hinge which allows roll articulation as well.

I haven't really thought the "wiggly monkey" through, though I see the principle. It should be possible to arrange a sort of hierarchy of balance beams to handle more than two dog hubs.

 

Zoran, thanks for this. It's much what I was thinking, except that we'd have several sprockets fixed to a tube around one of the axle shafts. The problem in a higher-performance application would be torque steer, i.e. the long axle shaft winds up under power and unwinds when power is released, resulting in more power first to one wheel and then to the other. It is why the short driveshaft on a transverse front-drive arrangement usually has a narrow waist somewhere along its length, to make it as springy in torsion as the long driveshaft. So one would have to incorporate some sort of torsional spring in the hub etc. to achieve that.

But I'm investigating other differential options.

Edit: as long as the diff is open, wind-up shouldn't be a problem, as it would be equalized in the differential's action. So, Stu's arrangement would work perfectly, with the necessary adjustments.

Things might get a bit hairy with a limited-slip differential, though. The same applies to the principle of a Detroit Locker, for instance, which isn't really a differential at all but an automatically-unlocking spool. That could in principle be widened into a laterally- sliding splined axle with clutches at the wheels, but the haphazard locking and unlocking wouldn't suit this sort of car.

The consensus in road-racing seems to be moving in the direction of, the grippier the tyres you have, the more sense a plain open diff makes.

I think the old trials practice of separate left and right handbrakes acting on the respective rear wheels would rather suit the character of a GN/FN, despite being wholly redundant on the originals.

 

Setup day at Retromobile
Peugeot Bebe

Bugatti and Talbot (too big for a cyclecar but too cool)

Riley

George Irat

Renault (AX?)

BNC

A row of Bugs

An other Bug

Croizemarie

and a Bugatti a way we rarely see them

 

Here's an arrangement of "wiggly monkeys" that would work with three dog hubs and six speeds:

 

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Hello Ned,​

I am sure that you will find solutions, design them and make them in the best way that you need and want, for your “special”, and all of us can enjoy in following development of your project, discussing some issues and giving “advices”... Never too old to learn something new – even not of any use in practical way? (thinking on myself at the first place)
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I was thinking about turning things on head (Columbus’s egg):

• replica of earlier GN, in mater of transmission: entire sprockets/chains/sprockets complete should be fixed to chassis (no any torsional or other unwanted forces on system);
• from secondary axle with sprockets, instead of belts, use a pair of chains to each of the rear wheels (a`la motorcycle system), or just one chain to differential on the rear axle;

Chain-type differential could be built or bought... I am not sure for weight, power and way of use of your special, but suppose that belts shouldn't be adequate? Otherwise, they would obtain simple differential function...

It seems to me that Detroit Locker simply use two free-wheel bearings (one for each side), or sprang-clutches? If it is so, I am afraid that there shouldn't be real differential action:

• power/torque would be equal to both of wheels just at straights;
• at curves and corners – only outside wheel should have free-wheeling without power/torque at all, turning faster than half-shafts; - inside wheel should have all the power/torque!

Not the best solution?
For sure that two hand-brakes should be helpful if need to have limited differential action (avoid free-wheeling of one wheel over mud and dust)
For me just fitness for old brain, during short winter days and long nights, waiting to finish my HPV-quadricycle when weather permitt that.

Ciao,
Zoran​

 

....deleted... (double message)

 

Thank you for the Retromobile photos! Keep them coming if you can, really appreciate it. Wish I was there.

 

I'll try but I'm there for work so I won't have much time to roam the aisles once it opens to the public.

 

I was thinking, I'd need a bevel box anyway, and an IRS third member should be the most convenient. That shouldn't have a differential in it, though, so I could replace that with a spool and use the diff on the axle.

I'm wondering about a nice light bevel box, though, as being ahead of the gearbox it'd see at most less than a third of the torque it'd see in a conventional arrangement.

 

I used the tailrotor gearbox from a Sikorsky heilo in my ersatz Morgan

Hoib

 

Hit send too soon- Frank Piasecki used the lower end of an outboard motor for the tailrotor in his first ship--kind it hard to lash it down though as there was no flat surface for mounting, I think that they welded a plate, with gussets to the outer casting, which should have played hell with the gear alignment--but hey--it flew

Was a long time ago when we cosmetically restored The PV2 at Piasecki Aircraft, that I had the opportunity to sniff around it.

H

 

Chris,​

It is nice to have such job where you enjoy, or to have a joy for which you are paid?
Wonderful photos of old automobiles from various categories! Peugeot Bebe and cute Croizemarie are as older and a little more serious brothers of cycle-cars?

Ciao,
Zoran​

 

What sort of ratios do those have?

 

Nedd.

Been a long time, but as I recall the Sikorsky was around 2½-1 with a hunting tooth--so ratio wasn't exact. The outboard I have no idea--not into boats, Not a heck of a lot of help I know. Never even knew what model Sikorsky the thing was out of., as it was a government surplus rebuild. $35. I bought 2 for insurance, but never had a speck of trouble, Last I heard the trike was still running-now on its fifth owner

 

has anyone seen results of the Baillon collection auction yet . Some of the predicted prices in the catalogue seemed quite cheep! Wish I was there with a wallet full of euros!

 

About 20% of the estimates appear spot-on, many of the rest are insanely low. More entice-to-bid than estimate of selling price. An Amilcar CGSS biplace sport, circa 1927 (which, admittedly needs everything) for only 3000 - 5000 €? Some of the estimates are too low. I'd hate to see some of the sedans cut up for, as Dawie put it, "more obvious cars". There are not many high, or should I say generous, estimates. When I looked a couple of minutes ago, they had not posted results.

 

I went to the baillon auction yesterday! Mainly for the amilcar but it was way out of my league! People went crazy yesterday!
46000€ +20%tax for the amilcar

50000+tax for the sandford

 

44000 for a voisin chassis with engine

480000 for the hispano suiza

105000 for a delage d8

250000 for the bugatti

625000 for the talbot lago t26

1 490 000 for the talbot lago t26 grand sport

25000 for the packard eight

1 700 000 for the maserati

And 14 200 000 for the ferrari 250

 

All without tax! I was happy to witness it but too bad the most cars went for 3/4 times the estimated price! It certainly filled the room!
And about the cars: they were nicely displayed and a once in a lifetime opportunity to see so many rare barn finds in one place!

 

Based on the pre auction photos this was my pick of the collection, that roof damage was never shown in the early shots. What was the sale price on it? Bob

 

1 490 000€+20% tax
Nice and rare car with allot of rust and damage