The 1967-68 Mustang Lime Gold I mentioned yesterday from TCPGlobal is $280/gallon in acrylic lacquer.
Thanks Blue I would love to order from them but again without seeing the colour in person it would just be a crap shoot at this point as to whether it is what I am looking. I worry the metallics might be too coarse as well on later finishes as what I have and was apparently used is literally just a powder. Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Just posting again to make your life more difficult. My mind started to wander about this project again, and I went back to my original scenario, the Ayalas wonder about the paint in their shop. Most customizers used things that were pretty new, to update the looks of the cars, including paint. So I went to color library, with my idea how I would go about making a color like this. I looked at several years, 49-53, different makes, and I came up with what I would do. I looked for the brightest yellow that was made back then, came up with a 51 Packard color. To this I would add transparent green toner, some extra clear for more depth, and then add the gold bronze powder in the end. Then adjust as necessary. A little black might make the gold powder 'pop'. And as you found out, you only need a little to go a long way! Now, you could probably find a bright yellow paint in lacquer, and make a few test batches to see if you can get it to your liking. I think the HOK candy is too diluted to work with, at this point, either candy Organic Green or the concentrate version of the Lime Gold would probably work better.
Thanks Mark!! That helps a lot. I could get TCP to mix that colour up and add to it. Do you think the organic green would be better than the Lime Gold for the colour I am after? I agree the premixed candy would not be strong enough. I will have to see if I can find a source for coloured lacquer nearby that I might be able to get some yellow from to play with.
Pagan Gold Kandy concentrate is fairly yellow and a little bit moves a mix a long way. The other toners (transparent mixing color) that make gold are a laquer PPG mixing toner called Midas Gold and one called Rich Brown. Midas Gold gave an orange toned gold color when used in moderation. Too much and it goes to a maroon or a deep burnt orange somewhere in the middle. The Rich Brown, and again used with lots of restraint, can net a gold look that most recognize. To my color eye I see real gold (metal) as an orange tone and polished brass as a green tone. Gold is tough to hit right on when your mind's eye sees a color. If I get what you want to do you're after a gold candy with a subtle metallic. True candies are the test of painter's mettle. Different set of rules, no cut ins, don't cough or get a cramp in your arm, be as 'robotic' as you can with distance. And all of that is after you have the ultimate gun adjustment. Then there's repair if the car is to driven to any degree of reasonable use. To those ends and precautions I'd recommend you play with HOK, Kandy Base Coat Lime Gold. Your base layer under it will indeed change the final color. Over bright yellow it looks like a modern pearl finish. I never did get to try it over a gold metallic like a mid 60s GM color (Tiger Gold in 65, other names later). There's also a late 70s Trans Am gold color that's really nice as is, but with some KBC Lime Gold over it? Gotta look old school kool, no? The nice part of that compromise is that when some douche hits you in the parking lot or on the road, or maybe something mystically falls from the garage wall or ceiling, the steps can be duplicated easily to get a 100% match. Just sayin, and the things I mentioned are readily available. Your "eye" is the final word. A quick edit: OEM Ford color code 1Q silver is the finest poly I've ever seen. Practically like baby powder. The "metallic" in the KBC I mentioned above is closer to a pearl, but again very fine in texture. KBC over 1Q is something I always wanted to try. Also, that 1Q will test your ability too. Unlike common metallics it will "stripe" really easy. For custom use I base twice. Once to cover, surface with 1200, then a low pressure mist or drop coat. It's almost magic in it's final look and fits even high level cars from the 30s. Here's 2, and notice the shadow effects, but imagine a candy over it:
Thanks Highlander. I am actually trying to avoid a candy if at all possible. I don't really think what the Ayala's did was a true candy and I don't have the confidence in my painting skills to successfully spray one especially on a truck with all the transitions it has anyways. I may be wrong but most other paint jobs of the time seem to have been custom mixed colours with the gold metallic powder added. Manuel's suggestion reads like a candy but if it needs to be sprayed like one I don't think I can do it. If that is the case I am going to need to figure out how to come up with a Lime Gold colour I can add the gold powder to to get something close. Manuel thought there was an actual Lime Gold toner used in lacquer back than as he said he had some at one time but I have been unable to find one. Hibernia is supposed to call today and if they don't know I will need to figure out how to mix myself off a pre existing colour along the lines of what Mark suggested. I want to use lacquer if I can which means ordering from the U.S. so no chance of seeing what I am getting before I order which is why I was hoping some of you guys might have some ideas. If I was shooting a candy I agree that silver would be a crazy base for it.
Hey Jocko how you doin'? What we're looking for here, I believe, is a color that matches the 49 Merc the Ayala Bros built, that later "became" a Barris custom. The Ayalas painted the car a beautiful shade of Lime Gold, and most articles about it mentions gold bronze powder in the custom mix. There werent' any stock colors around that shade, so we are trying to duplicate it, hopefully in lacquer, but if not, something that looks close to the old lacquer, and is the same color. Pretty sure the color was not a candy back then (1949-50), but most folks think the candy Lime Gold is close in color to what they did. I think I'd just use the Organic Green to tint the yellow. Most likely the Packard yellow has a lot of opacity to it, due to it's light color, and probably a lot of white in the mix..white is a very "hiding" color, very opaque. You might need a bit of the green to affect the color, but you still need to go slow, so you don't overdo it. The Lime Gold concentrate would be much weaker in the green, so it would take much more to tint the yellow. This is the reason I might add more clear, or mxing clear to the batch, to increase translucency, get a deeper finish, and so the opacity of the yellow doesn't hide the effect of the gold powder.
Thanks again Mark!! And you believe correct that is my goal. I really appreciate all the help and info guys!! I would be lost without it.:
I know of a Don Hutcininson cycle here in Massachusetts of some paint reputation. Even if he does say so himself. http://hutchinsoncycle.com/
I like the idea of using the candy, I'm sure you know a few guys from the shops you travel that could do candy job for you? one of my bucket list projects is going to be a gold metalflake base, smothered in umpteen coats of deep ruby red candy, YUM
I think the candy would look killer but I don't think it fits the era I am going after. I could definitely find someone to paint it but I think it would be a let down to have done everything myself and then get someone else to paint it.
I guess I have a better perspective of what you want now. Still, I'd start with 1Q lacquer still available as (don't quote me) DDL 3590 (?). I bought some direct from my supplier in 08 and even got several gallons of DCA468 clear lacquer. To the 1Q I would add about 5% or less of Midas Gold mixing toner and even add some of the gold powder to it as well. The result would be a fine metallic (like the old days) and a tone or shade that fits your eye. In the screen image and with my monitor I see a plain old gold metallic on that Merc. 78 Pontiac Trans Am gold over a white base would net something that looks so close to that Merc that only the original painter could tell the difference. Then you also get the repair element mentioned before. Early to mid 60s Cadillac metallic golds fit the bill too. Real fine poly and a glamorous look as well. Sometimes we can get bogged down in ice cold molasses trying to duplicate something we can't even reference today. That finish is long gone, isn't it? Anything you do will be a 'best guess' but keeping the poly small will net something authentic. Whatever you make up or purchase you can call it whatever you wish once it's on the car. Remember, your base color will effect the final finish. Whites, black, red oxide, all add a different tone. I'd experiment there. All the newer Vettes in Torch Red are sprayed over a white base. A lot of the bright yellows too. Yellow over black looks green to me. Red over black looks like a brick red, even if you went well beyond the normal 3-4 coats it will not match the color over white. That applies to ALL colors. I generally paint all my 30s classic jobs over black regardless of the customer's final color choice. Many of the high-price cars of the 30s were black 1st for a visual quality inspection. That's archived info, not an opinion. I don't envy what you're trying to do, and final color is the most important decision one can make about their car project. That's a tough fact to argue against. Good luck, and if I can be of help just ask.
Thanks Highlander. You have certainly pointed out an issue when trying to do this over the internet with different looks on a monitor. I definitely do not want a straight gold. On my monitor there is a definite green cast to the gold and that is the look I am after. The original colour, I am pretty sure, was described as a lime or green gold.
Here's an idea, (I think), Advance mixes those custom spray bombs (which is laquer I believe) they can prob sell it(toners) without the bomb....
I am not sure what they use for a carrier but the custom spray bombs are just mixed off the regular paint systems. I assume they have changed from lacquer to something compatible to the waterborne systems.
I talked with Adam at Hibernia today. Super nice guy. He said he did have a green gold toner but describe it as Kermit the frog green so I don't think that is going work He said he would take a look at the picture of Wally's car and see what he thinks and let me know. Again with the differences in monitors who knows what might happen but he at least said he would give it a shot. I believe they use PPG lacquer so it won't be cheap if he can come up with something but they will send out a spray out for $40 before hand so at least I can see the colour and it comes off the price of the paint if I go with it. I would really like to spray the concoction I have mixed myself but I have a outside leak in the NG line to my garage that I can't get fixed until summer so I am not sure when I will be able to get it sprayed.
Hey Ian, The colour Ayala shot has always struck me as an argent- bronze.The base colour of that zinc chromate colour+ a gold second coat would produce that '' if' '' mixed and shot carefully! For some cheap thrills, you could play with some of that cheap lacquer they now sell in the automotive parts stores. I'd mix that base, the M6000 or whatever, and give a shot at mixing some clear & some gold together, and lay down some thin coats. Study the results, and figger out if that's the direction ya wanna go. I'd think 3-4 coats of clear & your bronze powder, over the green base, would put all the cards on the table At this point in the build, payin someone to shoot this job for ya would be ' bout like you asking someone to " have relations with your wife '' I ain't seein' it Also, please don't be mislead 'bout the '' innocuous nature '' of shootin a lacquer instead of a product that contains isocyanates, the ketones, xylenes and toluene contained in lacquer can really do the number in your liver, kidneys & your brain, your brain " Meanwhyle, back aboard The Tainted Pork "
I have thought about playing around with the cheap lacquers as well but until I can spray not really much point in getting too much product. I think I might order some of the right gold powder and see how it looks in the candy I have as it appears to be quite a bit lighter and not as bronze coloured as the stuff I have now. I appreciate the safety warning. I am under no illusion that lacquer is safe just not quite as deadly as iso's. Really it is the flash times that make it attractive for a home paint job. Hoepfully not as much chance for contamination.
Not all "Lime Golds" are the same. Example, a 1956 Chevy "Laurel Green" is not the same color as a 1963 Chevy "Laurel Green".
For all the guys suggesting using later model colors, they don't have the right look! The metallics used in later colors (or pearls) are larger, and don't look like the old metal powders. The modern basecoats are much too opaque, and "flat" lookint...and have a too shiny plasticky look when finished with urethane clear. He's looking for the look of the old lacquers, and if you haven't ever seen them...you wouldn't know what look he is after. Ian..if you're having problems with doing it yourself, I can help. I can't promise to get things done quickly, but I can do some experimenting and some sprayouts for you to help. Just gotta be patient. I love to "play" with paints, but I also have to do it in between real shop work (and I only do it kinda part time). Insead of cluttering up the HAMB, PM me if interested. I'm in NJ, not real close to Hibernia, but shipping would be a lot less! I can ship finished panels to you. Suggest using sign blanks, as they are relatively small, and flat, easier to ship.
Mark I really appreciate the offer and will definitely be in touch if I can't figure this out. Never a rush with me this project has been going on for years. It will be months before I will be painting anyways. Thanks Pimpin' to be honest until I started reading stuff from guys like you and Highlander I had never really paid much attention to paint but I have definitely grown to appreciate the period correct finishes over the years.
OK< had a bit of time in between metal finishing some stainless trim for the Riv I am assembling. I just can't do that shit for too long! anyway, quick look in the old paint cabinet...found a quart of a late model Vette color, supposedly all yellow toner. Now, it IS basecoat, NOT lacquer, so things will be a bit different! Didn't have any Organic green concentrate, but I did have some HOK candy. As I guessed, the yellow was very opaque. So I mixed it almost half and half with some HOK SG-100 intercoat clear, to gain some translucency. Then added a little bit of the candy green. Now, I also had some Lime Gold concentrate, just to judge my colors by. I got it kind of close, so I added some HOK ultra mini gold flake to it, didn't want to search for any old gold powder, and sprayed 3 coats over white primer. I also sprayed out some Lime Gold over a HOK Orion silver base next to it. The mixed paint looks a bit more yellow than lime in the pics, but in person they are closer in color.. You have to understand that candy paints are very difficult to get a good picture of the color. In fact, in person, the candy I sprayed looks too green in some angles, but too yellow in others, so I must be close. Personally I think the mix I did is still too opaque to pass for candy, but you get the point, it IS possible to mix up some yellow and a bit of green to get the Ayala color pretty close. I did this in approx. 20 minutes, more playing around would have better results. AND I was working with regular Cromabase paint, not lacquer. the basecoat color looked like it was getting muddy with the addition of the green, because it was so opaque to begin with. A paint with more transparent yellow toner would take the green and be a cleaner color. Don't despair! This CAN be done! Pic #1 Yellow base Pic #2 lid from Lime Gold concentrate, my mix, and lid from Organic green pic # 3 Sprayout, Candy Lime Gold on left, my mix on right, in this one, looks too yellow. pic # 4 My mix by itself, you can barely see the metallic in it, but the color in the picture is closer to what it is in person. Metallics masked by the opacity of the basecoat yellow.
WOW Mark thanks so much!! So cool of you to be playing around with this! Would lacquer toners be any less opaque than the basecoat toners or is it more the fact that white is used for a base to make yellow that the metallic gets washed out? Definitely heading more in the direction I am thinking.
I've never mixed paint from scratch, the others have to chime in here. I've only mixed what's available, regular paint, candy, pearls, as well as metallic and pearl add ins, candy concentrates, etc. But I do know that toners for both types of paints come in transparent and opaque versions. My local paint supplier sometimes gives me some in 1/2 pint cans to tint difficult to match colors. The opaque ones change color fast, but tend to be muddier in a lot of cases. Two transparents mixed together usually results in cleaner, truer colors. In any case, either the amount of the white can be an issue, or in my yellow mix...the paint was supposed to be a single toner mix, no others added, so I'd guess that the yellow itself was very opaque. If I was doing more, I'd probably start with an opaque yellow, but use a lot of transparent yellow as well, to give more translucency, and let other colors in the mix stay true, and the metallics show.
For the record, and to answer any questions, if I suggest a modern color it's because it fits the requirements of the job at hand. If by spray out or by fiddling with the mix it looks right then there's no harm or foul. I spent countless hours pouring over the color books at the Hibernia space at Hershey. They stopped bringing them out to prevent undue wear, but the colors in those books were true mixes. If you had the time and a bright enough monitor you can see all the colors in the Auto Color Library page at TCP Global. Yes, I'm stuck or sold on 87-88 Tbird/Mercury/Lincoln 1Q silver. It really is one of the finest poly colors available if not indeed THE finest. Always a good start for any metallic color needs on early cars. Packard had a metallic called "Bruce Blue". Very transparent and a super fine poly. Not to be confused with the later metallic blue from 37 forward, it was dark, had just a wee bit of green to it, and over a black base looked as real as you could ask for. So lets talk about that greenish tint to early colors, damn near all of them if you have the eye to pick it up. I feel that it comes from the binder in the old nitro lacquers. Held up to the light, it looks like very pale beer with a distinct green/gold cast to it. It "flavors" just about every color it's used in. Whites look dirty, yellows favor the green side, blues show it right in between direct light and shadows. Once we get past about 1965 most of the metallic colors began to use bigger poly in their mixes. Cadillac was good for that in their "Firemist" color selections. Still, not every metallic after that time was big poly in their respective factory packaged offerings (paint produced by a major supplier, not mixed in a jobber's store). There's also some select Euro colors that rock a really fine poly and give a nice authentic look to an early car's finish or a period custom. Some select Asian offerings are that way too. There's a Toyota metallic blue that even the best of the best can't distinguish from Mopar B7 blue if sprayed over red oxide. It's never a good idea to chain yourself to the mixing bench and stay "in the box" when wrestling for a color. Metallic gold has been around for a long time just as silvers, greys and many other colors, actually since the 1928 model year. And again, with no "live" sample to match to, how do you know what was used? This love/hate relationship I've had with paint? If I NEVER picked up a spray gun again I'd die a happy man. Sometimes it wears you right out.
Thanks guys. Really good info Highlander. I guess I wasn't really originally looking a metallic colours because I was thinking of adding the gold metallic powder but I am certainly open to anything so your input on poly's is very helpful in allowing me to broaden my search.
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