Lincoln V12 engine needs a car build around it

First thing that jumps out at me is, are you taking the 900mm length as a space zone for the engine, or would you need to get the engine, the clutch, and half the final drive in there? 36" seems about right for a Lincoln V12; and 750mm seems believable for an Audi transaxle: but in that case the axle centreline would be about 200mm aft of the front of the bellhousing i.e. 175mm further back than you've drawn? If that's the case your wheelbase grows to 2975mm, or about 117".

Have you considered emulating the Countach layout, the same way Ford did on a late-'60s mid-engined Mustang concept? Ford cobbled it out of off-the-shelf 4x4 bits. Every time it appears on any kind of social media the comments come thick and fast about what a stupid idea it is, without any realization that what Ford did was basically what Lamborghini did only a few years later, just a bit bulkier.

The challenge then would be a fairly substantial tunnel between the seats, so do you have the width for that? Still, the bulkiest part would be behind the lower part of the seat backs, where you might have space, and under your right knee. If you're lucky you can create a hollow just right for your butt. The advantages are: better weight distribution due to bringing the transmission forward, very wide choice of simple rwd transmissions, very wide choice of final drive hardware, very wide choice of rear suspension systems (even a live axle if you want!), better service access with all the engine ancillaries at the free (rear) end of the engine, ease of packaging due to the option of having the crank pulley close to or even behind the axle centreline, [edit:] and AWD is then easy.

Depending on how large the late-Vintage idiom is to loom, a rule I've found to work with cars of that sort is that the tyre diameter should be close to a quarter of the wheelbase. My own dream project requires a 111" (2829mm) wheelbase, and the tyres I'm looking at are 195/50R20 (Bridgestones for an electric BMW @ 27.7") on the front and 275/50R17 (27.8") on the back. (27.7 + 27.8) x 2 = 111". The rule isn't hard-and-fast, but in my experience you wouldn't want tyre diameters smaller than a quarter of the wheelbase. Bigger is viable — if that's the idiom.

Would a mid-engined supercar of 1930 have fenders like the Lincoln roadster's? I'd suggest that it'd more likely have had cycle fenders or very basic open-web "flying" fenders, i.e. it would have been basically an open-wheel car with "road equipment". Later in the '30s fully-faired aerodynamic teardrop fenders, as James D posted in Post 20, would have been a probable alternative.

 

35 to 37" from axle center line to bulkhead still sounds really tight to me for a vintage V-12. I'm assuming that puts the rad and an electric fan up front, but still.... I'm looking at old Mopar 6 cyl heads being 23 to 25" bare. Now you need a trans, bellhousing, water pump etc. etc. at both ends. Hate to say it, but you might need to spend more time at the drawing board. The distance between the seat and motor also seems very tight, but more plausible. This is important because it's really going to affect the look of your car with the distance between the doors and the rear tires.

 

All good points. I'm eying the audi 0B1 or 0B3 that are wider with the diff kind of on the side, but have the axle very near the front. Then the V12 is 35" end to end with the bellhousing cast on. The stock damper makes it like 3" longer but I'm planning to loss that or I could tuck it into the seat recline space. maybe.


Once the ferrari engine is off the floor the plan is get a trans and lay that on the floor with some tape or whatever to try and sort what is truly a workable layout. Right now I'm mostly just trying to wrap my head around the mid-engine idea.....while I still have time to bail-out, once I spend any money the design is lock because there is no way I'm telling Lana I wasted money

 

There are other transaxle options to shorten the wheelbase. The ferrari boxer and TR cars basically tuck it up under the engine. Years ago, well before the frankenferrari I built the fiadillac.....a 472 Cadillac power fiat x1/9.


This used an old cadillac elodrado engine/trans (and the whole front subframe spun around backwards) and that trans sits along side the engine. This was great for making it fit in the fiat....but it also meant that a good bit of the engine weight was behind the rear axle making the car dangerously unsafe to drive....trap the throttle and do a wheelie unsafe. I would like to not repeat that foolishness

 

The whole post is helpful (thanks) but I want to focus on these 2 points. I honestly had though a lot about tireOD.....I was using 25" because that's what's on the 308.....but yeah something like a 20" wheel with a 27"OD tire is probably better for this project.

Then the 2nd bit I think any race car of the period removed the fenders. A more streetable version needs fenders so motorcycle to keep the race car looks. 100% agree. Where my head was going is what would the factory do not on the track but for a high-end production street car? ...and I struggle to believe anyone with supercar money wants mud or horse sh1t sprayed on themselves so truly functional fenders would be a design must have. At least that is how may thought process went. I live in central PA where Amish buggies are a thing I see on my street......so I want functional fenders I think

 

37 Bugatti replica......I like elements on this

 

just realized there was a HUGE error in the layout with the pedals at 76" when 45 is way more correct...meaning there is plenty of room to move the front wheels back...or the seat forward a bit. And upper the tire OD to 27" . My thought is now I can start doing some more scale sketches or start building CAD models This feels workable......which I think is what I said about the fiatillac and frankenferrari

 

Ok, scaling the image to fit the 110WB.....hmmmmmm...I just need to lower and section this thing. Which then begs the question should I perhaps just buy a 32 roadster body and work with that?....google time

 

sectioned 34 body...that could work

 

oh.....
https://www.decorides.com/foosebt.htm

 

1928 Stutz Blackhawk racer....

 

A high-end production street car in that era would be coachbuilt! And then the question is, what would the customer have wanted to express? I'd expect that many would be specifically about racing pretensions, i.e. keeping as much of the race car look and feel as can be combined with whatever level of practicality the customer is willing to live with. Part of the appeal is showing off what you're willing to endure for the sake of going fast.

The relationship between high-end automakers and coachbuilders was more complex than people realize. Not doing coachwork in-house at all was the norm until well into the '30s, but it varied. Some manufacturers liked to keep coachbuilders on a shorter leash than others, using the promise of production runs as leverage. For instance, Duesenberg restricted their preferred coachbuilders quite severely during the '20s, meaning that the cars' appearance conformed fairly closely to a pattern. It was only when Duesenberg's fortunes faltered a bit in the '30s that the most flamboyant coachwork happened. Duesenberg had lost much of their veto power. But even at their height their ability to dictate the appearance of their product was less than absolute.

I think a '30s-era mid-engined supercar would likely have sold, as a bare chassis, purely on the strength of a (possibly unexpected or surprising) competition reputation. In that case the kind of coachwork it would have attracted would have reflected that reputation, at least to some extent.

Tangentially related aside: did the image of the mid-engined Auto Union racing cars influence the popularity of the Tatra Type 77 among a more dashing element within the Nazi military?

 

One high-end manufacturer who very early sought to bring coachbuilding in-house was Mercedes-Benz. This precedent was factory work:

https://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/csc-features/mercedes-type-150h-mid-engined-maverick

 

There was a coupé prototype, too:

 

So did everything the Germans build look like a beetle?

 

The rear-engined teardrop was a bit of an international obsession — someone should write a book about the history of the type — but the Germans in the Nazi era did seem to develop it more than anyone else. The surprising futuristic bent of authoritarian regimes who paint themselves as conservative is whole other analysis: it was almost like the Dymaxions or Stout Scarab imposed at gunpoint.

 

You're finding all kinds of stuff I didn't know existed. These particular examples are more in the category of what I'm afraid I'll end up with than in the what I want to accomplish. A lot of efforts have the body looking like like an aircraft fuselage which is the right shape for an airplane but just looks wrong on a car. the proportions just seem all wrong. A few have mentioned that will b my struggle with a V12 parked between the rear axle and seat....and they are not wrong with that thought.

Right now I think pod(ish) fenders, very low main body -24ish inches tall with seating position putting shoulder below that height, I'm thinking the general boattail look is right. This is kind of where I started and I'm more convinced as I see more pics of examples. I was thinking no front grill, but now feel that was probably wrong or the body will looking like a beetle I fear. I'm just not an artist so I guess I need to see what I can muster in CAD....getting a good looking proportions seems like it is THE challenge here and in CAD I know the numbers are real not cheated.

The silver car on the decorides site maybe points the way.

 

This is a fascinating adventure, but its way over my head. I understand your concept, so I still have a few questions that may be way out of line and you have my permission to let them just go on by.
First off let me say, the silver version in this group would be the direction I would want to go, that one is so cool!

My issue with accomplishing the look of the silver car is how you make that front engine design as low as you want to go, and still have a driveshaft pass through the passenger compartment? The transmission tunnel would be huge, making the passenger compartment very crowded.

One could make the silver car a mid engine, if the passenger cab can move forward enough to place the motor & trans axle behind the seat and not distort the proportions of the car. It sounds to me like that is the direction you are looking at. I would not be too concerned about stretching the wheel base out a bit to maintain the correct body proportions. A couple extra inches can change the entire image of the car. Moving the radiator for engine cooling to the front may help shorten the rear of the car.
It appears to me you are seeking to have the body as close to the road as you can, but it also sounds like you are attaching the floor on top of the 4" high frame rails. Is there a requirement that the seat area of the floor can not be attached to the bottom of the frame, rather then at the top? Then, at the front (and rear) edge of the seating area, you can add cross bracing to provide the floor strength you seek. The space frame provides you the option to add bracing where ever you think you may need/want extra bracing. The actual butt position would be between the frame rails, you could add your seat padding and could still drop the driver 4" more into the car, which could allow the car to be lowered more as well, if you choose.
As for the grille at the front, you could add a radiator in the front, behind the grille, and connect it to the motor by piping through a tunnel between the seats. The tunnel only needs to be large enough to pass the two cooling system pipes, a bit of insulation, and your trans axle shifting mechanism through. You can add your fuel tank in the front and still have plenty of space for your choice of front suspension and space to pass the radiator cooling air out from under the long front hood.

 

To complicate matters further, I've just remembered the Malaysian Bufori La Joya. Bufori seem to have taken over the old GP Madison kit car, a vaguely Packard-looking affair on a VW floorpan. They built VW-based cars for a few years, but after first de-faking it by giving it a front engine and RWD — an idea I myself have had, since the time I had a neighbour who owned a Madison — Bufori went in the complete opposite direction, stretched the wheelbase behind the seats, and installed a mid-mounted transverse V6. Somehow I remembered the proportions as worse than the pics I could find reveal:

Not that bad, really: but how does this have any business being mid-engined?

As for going front-engined, as per the silver Decorides car, a rear transaxle could solve a lot.

 

With the frame, engine & drive train to build; do you really want the job of being a custom coach builder? K I S S

 

I've been down the force a V12 to sit transverse path....that is on the list of mistakes I don't think I want to repeat, 18 years and I've still not completely won the war

 

a lot of thoughts.

There will not be a frame in the standard sense of 2 big channels or boxs running the length of the car, it will all be 1" or maybe 1.25" tubing so getting my butt on the floor pan that will be about 4" off the ground is very doable and is the plan. I don't like to sit street cars any lower than about 4" as they get really hard to drive and not damage plug the ride gets brutal.

Yes radiator up front with piping is easy to do and likely the plan. I'm not a fan of front fuel tanks for safety, maybe if its a fuel cell but I'd prefer to not do that. Radiator and battery up front probably but probably not fuel.

 

You're right up the road from me...maybe you'll take pity and come help

 

I tried to get over to u before never worked out. We can do this!!!!! Have your #

 

still a lot to do but enough for today...its not terrible I don't think

 

Not really the style you seem to be after but have you seen the Hoffman X8?

 

got a drink and started playing with fender shape ideas......don't know.....I need to try a few different things I guess

 

Do you have a plan about the overall look of this thing? Are you intending for it to be able to pass as an authentic looking 1930s car, that could have been built at the time, or a present day hot rodders take on such a car? What do you intend for wheels and tires? Because it'll make a big difference if they're wide, or skinny vintage style, when it comes to the design of your fenders.

Fleshed out a bit...

 

Or a '30s car done like a '70s/'80s Supersaloon. But that really suggests a saloon as a base: a stump-nosed, mid-engined Model A Tudor?

 

Reminded me of the "Black Fog", mid engined, tube framed roadster from the 1980s. Which was a nice idea, but I think ended up looking a little strange with that long nose.