Looking for a "laid-over" engine for a modified?

Gents,
I still have this crazy idea that I'm going to be able to build one more hot rod some time down the road and I'm pretty sure it will be a small modified, probably a single seater. I have a couple of crazy ideas for it. One would be for a small Alfa I-4 or V6 with a matching Alfa transaxle (too sporty?) and the other is to also run an I-4 or 6 but it would be laid-over to one side of the frame, like a vintage oval / Indy racer / super-modified, etc.. This offset wouldn't be to emulate any specific car type, but just to shift the parts over so the driver wouldn't have to straddle the driveshaft.

The ultimate goal would not so much be a very narrow single seater, but a "slightly" narrowed T or A or B that has a small or offset driveshaft, lowered foot box, and a wider / more comfortable bucket seat. Or, in the case of the all-Alfa design, a very small driveshaft thru the foot box area connecting the motor and transaxle. I'd prefer to work towards the offset deal, leaving the Alfa / transaxle deal for a fall-back design.

I'm not necessarily looking for slant design motors, like the I-4 Tempest or I-6 Mopar, but motors that for one reason or another have been used in race cars and laid over to one side either for weight distro (ovals) or streamlining (lakes racing). Hopefully, there are some neat engines out there I'm not be aware of that would work ok. I know a lot of oval cars had motors laid over, and I've seen adverti*****ts for custom bellhousings that will lay-over the new Audi I-4s or VW TDI engines in 15 degree increments.

I anticipate other problems, like oiling / custom sumps, but if the circle track guys can do it to race, why not for the street?

Any advice, comments, suggestions for suitable engines or discussion on any anticipated problems will be greatly apprciated. Thanx, Gary

 

Interesting idea. Will this be carbed? If so, floats will have to be reoriented. Venting of the crankcase should be considered, as well as oil pickup and RETURN. If you can't count on gravity for help, some experimentation is in order.

Watson roadsters at Indy evolved with steeply inclined Offys...beautiful machines. Some buses and boats used adapted upright engines laid on their side. There's a way.

 

I believe the late 60/early70s international Scouts had slant 4bangers in em. Very doubful on any performance parts though

 

What about the Tempest Poncho 4 cyl?


Or if you REALLY want flat, Toyota Previa?

 

I used the all aluminum Jensen-Healey (Lotus 907) 2 liter four in my roadster. Like the Tempest it is half of a V8 and tilted at 45 degrees. The cast aluminun finned pan and oil system is made for the tilt. It is a DOHC 4 valve per cylinder engine. With seperate finned cam covers and looked pretty racy. I milled off the Jensen-Healey logo and replaced it with Ford. it was 14 mph faster than the 2 liter Pinto that it replaced.

 

The 1982 Pontiac Performance Handbook has photos and instructions on laying over a Pontiac Iron Duke 82 degrees with a wet sump. This was the hot ticket in pavement midget racing for a time but fell out of favor as horsepower limits went up. The methods outlined could be applied to any in-line wet sump motor.
You want weird, how about a Chevy Colorado I-5 or and Audi/Volvo/VW 5 cylinder?

 

I wonder if the engine could lay flat enough to run the steering/suspension over the top? That would look outrageous.

 

Volvo b21 b23 b230 is slanted came as 8 and 16 v
sohc and dohc ****er 31 and 41 rear end 240 got
a wery narow rearend

 

You'll wear the cylinders out on one side!!

 

Zerk,
Nothing is set in stone yet. Way too early for that. I'm also not too concerned about left / right side weight as an oval racer should be, but just in getting the driveshaft out near one frame rail to inlarge the ****pit area and get the driveshaft out from between my feet.

Laying the motor over has quite a few basic problems besides the purely mechanical, like which side do you want the ****** / shift knob to be? Which side of the head are the exhaust ports on? Intake side? Could you lean the motor both ways, or would one direction be better?

First off, I was thinking that it the motor was laid to the right, then the driveshaft and ****** would be down the left side of the ch***is, more like an oval racer (except they would lean the motor to the left, too, but I don't want to have it hanging out over the left frame rail. I'd like to keep all the engine under the hood). But in this line-up, the shifter would be in your left hand... good for Brits and Aussies, but not so much for me. ****pit entry would be from the curb side with this layout and, if the engine just happened to have it's exhaust on the left, then there would be no hot pipes to burn your shins on on the door side.

Conversely, if that whole deal was flipped and the driveshaft ran down the inside of the right ch***is rail (and ****** / shifter) and the motor was leaned to the left, that would be best for shifter location and provide street side entry. This would be super good if the motor just happened to have right side exhaust and headers on the non-entry side.

So, engine choice will not only depend on which side of the frame it can be mounted on, but in what way the air p***es thru the head. Regardless of the tilt, I will still need a fab'd intake / runner to get the intake mounting surfaces correct for either vertical or side draft orientation. Anyone still make updraft carbs? Ha Ha.

Thanx, Gary

 

Rich,
WOW.. this sounds pretty cool. Which way does the motor lean? EFI or Webers or what? Exhaust side is on? Thanx, Gary

 

FYI some of those Previa`s came supercharged!

 

This sounds SO neat, but that's nearly 90 degrees! How tall (or wide in the 82 degree lean) would this motor be? I don't think it would fit in the front of a modified frame. But... if you have some pix to convince me otherwise? ***ume it leaned to the left eh? Driveshaft still centered in the midgets, eh? Thanx, Gary

 

I like this engine... my folks had a 4 door 63 Tempest with one in it. But it leans the wrong way for a right side drive line. Too much of it will be outside the body / right frame rail. Thanx, Gary

Also... Greatly appreciate all the replys so far... this is encouraging. Keep 'em coming, folks. Gary

 

If the modified is small enough what about a bike engine? I've often thought that if a guy could figure out how to hook up the transmission he could have a light weight rod that could really zing on the highway.

 

Tell more. I'm a little familiar with the engine; thought it shared a bunch of dimensions with Vauxhall 2.2L 4 cyl stuff in the shortblock (but used shorter stroke crank); if there's a V8 cousin, I"d love to keep an eye out for a deep deal...

-Bill

 

a corvair might be your friend

 

True. One of the problems with using engines like 'Busas in cars is that they have no reverse. But if you used an Alfa transaxle, this should be NO problem. You could probably just remove the 'Busa's ****** and link it with a driveshaft to the transaxle (just a guess, but it seems plausible). It would sound pretty cool, too. But have zippo torque. You'd be talking a 1000 lb car or less, more than likely. Still... I'll keep that idear in my back pocket, too. Gary

 

Heo, I missed your post. Which way do these motors lean? Exhaust side? Thanx, Gary

 

A dry sump really isn't required if the oil system is plumbed right.

 

The Lotus used a Vauxhall crankshaft on the four cylinder 2 and later 2.2 liter versions. Drop in wet sleeves. Leaned to the right. Which is the intake side. Came with SUs or Webers. I think maybe EFI later. I ran Hilborn injection. The V8 versions were mid engine Lotus cars. Lots more Jensens around. Front engine rear drive. Came with a 4 or later 5 speed. Gaskets and parts had to come from the mother country and were expensive I thought. But it was cool. I know a guy who has some of these things. My old one for example.

 

Here is a link to a friend of my dads that runs a studio called "close enough engineering" in Seattle

Walker built a quick single seat 58 alfa roadster. It comes alive around 3700 and shifting gears comes around real quick if your foots in it

http://www.flickr.com/photos/philon/sets/72157600562572209/

 

A model B Ford with insert bearings and maybe an OHV conversion would be super cool and simple.Could "scoot" it over to serve your needs?

 

There's been many bike engined lotus 7 type cars built that weigh in 1000-1500 pound range. The reverse situation can be delt with, some ways more expensive than others and if you still want a laid over engine, look no further than a 1990s FZR 1000.

 

Check this out. www.h1v8.com

 

Yikes! Cool stuff this bike motor deal. Gary

 

I can recall the Canadians running V8's set on an angle in 60's super modified stock cars. I was told at the time it was done to keep things level on the inclined track surfaces. All I know is they were running big Mopars, and blew away the SBC's coming out of the turns.

 

Rootie,
Neat stuff. Is that anodized deal a sequential gear box with reverse? Do you need a second mortgage to get one?

As an aside, one of the reasons I like the Alfa DOHC 4 used with one of their later model transaxles is that I could mount the motor pretty close to the frame rail, since there is essentially no bellhousing. I could be wrong, but I also think the driveshaft could easily angle over towards the center line of the ch***is to mate up with the Alfa transaxle correctly without a lot of bad angles in it. If not using an Alfa engine, any engine I choose also needs to be narrow and have as small of a bell housing as possible - and as narrow of a ****** I can find, too - to keep the driveline as close to a frame rail as possible.

Greatly enjoying the inputs, gents. Gary

 

It's a reversing box only and, no. it's not real cheap, around 1500 bones I believe.

 

Dave, if you are speaking of those wild, winged, super-offset modifieds only seen in the NE, I can only imagine how crazy (and expensive) their stuff gets. Probably out of my league. Gary