Mark Hamilton was talking about a "starting relay" that is better for all vehicles. What part# is the starter relay?stated using 8gauge wire down to starter from "relay" Who knows what he was talking about?
You'll probably find the info you are looking for in his web site below. http://www.madelectrical.com/index.shtml
Don't know about your specific question but...Mark is a very quirky character (just call MAD ent. and talk to him) who believes all hi-draw components need a relay. I bought 2 of his 'headlight' relay kits a while back. Still have them. After reading his diagrams and explanations looked long on theory but not really necessary.
Where did you see this? Only two possibilities come to mind: 1. Use Ford solenoid (like 65 Mustang) mounted on inner fender with cable to starter. Start wire triggers Ford solenoid which sends full current to starter. Using a remote solenoid on a Chev starter requires a jumper from batt cable lug to solenoid trigger (start switch pole) to operate bendix and starter motor, when power comes from remote solenoid. No power travels to Chev solenoid until Ford solenoid is triggered. Used mostly to solve Chev hot start problem, which can also be solved by using a GOOD mini-starter. 2. Start switch relay - Install relay triggered by starter switch which sends full 12 volts to start switch pole on solenoid. Relays are like switches you can reach from across the room. Current comes in to the relay and waits to be sent out to whatever it is wired to. The relay is triggered by very small amounts of + and -. They can be triggered with either positive or negative by connecting one and switching the other. #30 is usually power in. Hope that helps.
Does this mean that you've come to the conclusion that RELAYS are not good candidates as a possible means for consideration when addressing a "hi-draw component" situation? Trying to understand. DD
Here is some more input on that. Probably NOT ALWAYS necessary. For example, as an electrical guy, I have had the opportunity to get familiar with Jags. O/T XJs have near 40 relays. Do you relate Jags with potential electrical problems? Enough said. In fairness, if a light switch goes out in your house, do you junk the house? Of course not, you replace the switch. Possibly that was the philosophy at Jaguar, easily replaceable wiring switches.
Relays are used for 1 reason. To get a big current draw without running a big wire all the way to the switch. Ford uses a relay in the middle of the starter cable, this is the relay in the kit. GM starters have a solenoid on the starter which does the same thing. Old 6V VWs often had Ford relays installed because their starter drew a lot of power, but the factory just ran a big wire. Eventually the switch would wear out, by putting on the Ford relay they would start better and ease the load on the switch. If the switch was worn out it would keep working under reduced load for a few years longer. Headlights and horns sometimes use relays to feed full power. New cars have lots of relays for no good reason. Your Mad friend just seems to like relays. If you need a relay on your GM starter better fix whatever is screwed up. Adding a relay is just adding complication for no good reason. The stock system is fine if it is in good shape and working correctly. If not, fix it don't stick on a band aid.
He talked about using a relay so that the power doesn't have to travel thru the switch then down to starter. Idea was to use bigger wire and get power from battery,I think
You want a 12 volt cable from batt to selinode,then same size to starter. If 6 volt use larger cable. Ford selinode is OK, most have 2 small posts 1 to start,other for jumping 12 volt to coil if needed.
Relays aren't a bandaid in my opinion. They allow an increase in current due to a shorter, thicker wire. The switch just gets used to turn on or off the relay...which itself handles the current. I talked a friend into putting Halogen lights into his 57 Chevy because he was complaining about dim lights. He found no difference in light output. I had a look at the original wiring and the problem was obvious...very small gauge wire over a long distance. I added a relay and a dedicated power wire under the hood to the low beam lights for him...he came back two nights later RAVING about how much of an improvement there was! Relays can be very useful,but like anything they can be over done. You don't need them for everything...but in certain situations they are a huge help!
Relays have their place, to be sure......But some mfgs over did it, i believe. The Ford solenoid fix for the GM hot start issue was a good fix, but with today's hi torque "mini" starters, it may not be needed. Has anyone experienced a hot crank problem with them ? 4TTRUK
Does it not work when wired up properly? Why complicate something that is this simple? Hot start issue is with headers on a V8 heating up starter and solenoid, not with a straight 6 and all that air flow.
I've had old 6V VWs with dodgy switches, that I fixed with Ford relays. After long use the switch would reliably supply enough current to actuate the relay but not enough to work the VW solenoid. I have a low mile 66 VW right now, if I ever put it back in commission I will put in the Ford relay just to make sure the OEM switch never wears out.
thas exactly what MadElect was talking about.Power goes from batt to switch then to starter.relay would take one step out?
It doesn't eliminate "one step" but on some vehicles it does reduce having to run a higher current load all over the place AND the relay will operate on less voltage as well as less amperage. In some cir***stances that can be beneficial. Ray
A relay, solenoid and contactor are the same things with a different name, it is just the size difference. You want only 1 relay/solenoid on the starter. The problem with adding a ford type to a gm type starter is that when the engine starts the two solenoids cannot release quick enough. For a millisecond, while the starter is still engaged as the engine is running, the starter becomes a generator and supplys the voltage to keep itself engaged. And that is when you loose a tooth off your flywheel. Go to PowerMaster and read thier tech about that situstion.
I have always used the Ford relay on Chevys because when you add a bus bar, to the GM starter solenoid, there is only the large gauge battery wire connected to the GM starter. And, in my experience with GM wiring on starters, the small wire(s) to the relay is/are the hardest to put on, and usually the first to get burned to shreds by headers/exhaust. Using a GM Heavy Duty starter from a Buick or Caddy with an iron nose from a Chevy makes a low buck alternative to other solutions. As far as the solenoid not retracting, it's physically impossible if a bus bar is used because when the main power is off, the GM solenoid is off as well --- same as when you use the GM starter solenoid only. And, hell yes, this may well be overkill for a lot of situations. So what? If it makes installing a starter easier, and kills all power to it after it has done the job it was intended to do, then I'm of the same mind people who build and fly airplanes are: redundancy is good.
What does this mean? What up and back from the switch? There are guys on here who are trying to help you. Could you please answer our questions, so that we can figure out if that is possible. I agree fortynut!!
I am trying to figure out why MadElectrical was pushing for a "starting relay "setup?He stated it takes quite a few volts to turn over the starter.Better to go from batt to relay to starter.that way the power hot for the starter does NOT go up thru the switch &back down to the starter with a #16gauge wire.Instead install a relay&use a battery cable to "power up" starter NOT a 16gauge. also needs a jumper wire on starter? How many volts are needed to start the engine? What is the part# for the ford relay?
If the current is either high in draw, or spikes when on, I use a relay to do the job. VW starting probs helped to confirm the issue.
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