Not knowing much at all about the long racing manifolds he and others were using at the time I can't answer that part. I mentioned looking at the cylinder head at the time that the combustion chamber and compression ratio discussion started. I have looked at photos of it but it appears to be a somewhat plain chamber compared to the HD KR head and others we have looked at. He knew that with the Ford firing order and siamese ports you would never get equal charges so he changed the firing order to get around that. Winfield was a natural with cams, airflow carbs and ports so he must have found a reason for the unusual intake manifold. The whole package sure worked, it was the fastest Ford in the country at the time and beat all of the overheads.
I have used both A-2 and D-2 to make new lifter bodies for roller tappets on early cars and both have worked excellent. I have also found that bearing bronze works good for lifter bodies or guides.
Bill- you asked- If you were to go to the trouble of a fixed lifter, why not go to a roller lifter and cam? Well I would, but that wouldn't give the option of changing the lobe center angle by changing the tappets (which are easier for me to make) than the cam. If anyone wants to try a roller cam, There were some wild ones developed for Indian motorcycles back in the day. I have drawings of the profile of a couple, including one developed by "Pop" Shunk that is not only legendary, but a wild shape to look at. Indian used a 1/2" roller on each of two arms that worked off the same cam lobe. The geometry of the arms increased the valve lift (like a 1 1/2 - 1 rocker), and the spacing between the rollers radially around the cam gave the lobe center angle. The disadvantage of this system is that both valves have the same timing (IE opening, closing and duration), and the last of the hot Indian race jobs went to two very narrow cams in place of the single one so that each valve could be slightly different in this respect. This was done by private tuners- not the factory. If someone knows a small obliging cam grinder, perhaps a master for a Shunk - or an "Ollie"- another contour, not so radical - could be made up. Can't see that a master could be that much of a problem with CNC, I'll bet that Winfield hand filed some of his. Herb
RE the long intake manifold Winfield used on his engine-- the length of a tube controls the frequency that it resonates at (Think organ pipes). This resonance can be used to pack more mixture into, or exhaust out of an engine. Longer tube length means resonance point at lower RPM. I'll bet that Winfield went to the long intake to give himself that little extra coming out of the corners--- Herb
Herb, Could you post the drawings of the Shunk cams you spoke of, provided there aren't any objections from the regulars of this thread. This is of much interest to me. K..
This is the one that i use: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184559&highlight=ram+intake+runner+length Ran across a good explanation of how ram induction works and thought some would appreciate it. http://www.chrysler300club.com/uniq/allaboutrams/ramtheory.htm For those that don't wanna click I cut and paste, but you can't see the picutres: Before you get calcing...remember the intake tract is the underside of the intake valve to the outer lip of the carb/velocity stack. Ram Theory In addition to discovering the best use for the fig, Sir Isaac Newton created three "law's of motion". More commonly known as the "law of inertia", the first law of motion is: An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion. This law is the foundation for Ram Induction. Visualize the intake cycle of the engine as air flowing through the intake manifold runner, past the intake valve, and into the cylinder. Everything is fine and dandy until the intake valve shuts. Here is where the law of inertia comes to play -- because the air was in motion, it wants to stay in motion. But the air can't go anywhere because the valve is shut so it piles up against the valve like a chain reaction accident on the freeway. With one piece of air piling up on the next piece of air on the next on the next, the air becomes compressed. This compressed air has to go somewhere so it turns around and flows back through the intake manifold runner in the form of a pressure wave. This pressure wave bounces back and forth in the runner and if it arrives back at the intake valve when the valve opens, it is drawn into the engine. This bouncing pressure wave of air and the proper arrival time at the intake valve creates a form of supercharging. In order to create this supercharging, all of the variables have to be aligned so the pressure wave arrives at the intake valve at the right time. This combination of synchronized events is known as 'resonant conditions'. The Math for Long Rams Let's look at some numbers to see how the 30" long ram tubes were developed. Our pressure wave travels at the speed of sound. A good estimate for the speed of sound is 1,125 feet per second. For the F & G camshaft, the intake valve is open for 2680 of crank rotation. The engine rotates twice (7200) for the intake to open once. 7200 minus 2680 = 4520 of crank rotation that the intake is closed. At 2,800 RPM, 4520 = .0268 seconds. (See below) 2800 rev/minute divided by 60 seconds/minute = 46.66 rev/second 46.66 rev/second X 3600/rev = 16,8000/second 4520 / 16,8000 per second = .0268 seconds. This .0268 seconds is the critical time factor. During this .0268 seconds that the intake valve is closed, the pressure wave is moving at 1,125 feet/second and travels 30.15 feet. At resonant conditions, the pressure wave has to travel 30.15 feet to arrive at the intake valve when it is open. Since the pressure wave spends this time going up the runner AND going back down the runner, the runner length is actually only half of 30.15 feet, or 15.075 feet, which is equal to 181 inches. Swell. Terrific. 181 inches. How does a 30" ram tube work if our equations say we need 181"? The answer is: 6 Start the clock the first time the valve slams shut and the pressure wave is formed. The wave bounces away from the valve and reaches the end of the 30" tube. Time now: .00223 seconds. The wave bounces back down the 30" tube and hits the closed intake valve. Time now: .00446 seconds. The wave bounces off the valve and repeats the trip every .00446 seconds. Time Bounce .00446 sec 1 .00892 sec 2 .01338 sec 3 .01784 sec 4 .0223 sec 5 .0268 sec 6 At the critical time of .0268 seconds, our wave traveled the target distance of 181" up and down the tube. Although our pressure wave arrived at the intake valve five times to find it was still shut, on the 6th bounce our wave arrived to find the valve open. The pressure wave entered the cylinder and we had ram induction! This chart demonstrates the effect of ram induction using long rams: The example above has demonstrated why ram induction works. Now let's look at the limitations of ram induction. The following parameters affect the arrival of our pressure wave at the intake valve: Engine speed The number of crank rotation degrees the intake valve is closed. Length of the intake runner tube. If these parameters are not balanced properly, ram induction doesn't work. Let's go through the calculations again with the engine RPM changed to 1200 RPM: The critical time factor calculates to .0528 seconds. At .0528 seconds, our pressure wave has bounced around 11.8 times. In this situation, the wave is only 80% through the intake when the valve opens and the pressure wave arrives at the valve too late. Change the RPM to 3600. The critical time factor decreases to .02084 seconds. At .02084 seconds, our pressure wave is midway down the tube during its fourth bounce when the intake valve opens. Once again, the pressure is not synchronized to the open intake valve. In the illustrations above, we only changed engine speed. What would happen if you also decreased the intake runner length and adjusted the cam timing? You could once again synchronize the pressure wave to the valve opening for 3600 RPM and you would have Short rams! QUESTIONS Why wasn't ram induction use before 1960? It was. Racing engines used tuned intake and exhaust systems to boost performance. Offenhauser and Hillborne produced some exotic tuned systems. What problems did Chrysler solve to make ram induction viable for a production vehicle? First, the engineering equations had to be meshed with the realities of the real world. In the real world, the speed of the pressure wave is affected by the cross sectional shape of the intake runner, the number of turns and bends in the intake, the temperature of the under hood air, the fuel evaporation cooling from the carb, the heating by the exhaust gas bypass pipes, the surface roughness of the manifold walls, and the list goes on. It would take considerable time and effort to evaluate these factors. To expedite the ram induction development program, Chrysler built adjustable length (telescoping) ram manifolds. With adjustable rams, Chrysler could easily evaluate different configurations until they got something that worked. Reliable sources say the ram configuration that reached production was designated as "stage 5". Secondly, solving the problem of under hood packaging was a hurdle. The ram manifolds not only had to fit under the hood, they had to be reasonably easy to service, and they had to survive for the normal life expectancy of the vehicle. There were also manufacturing problems: the long aluminum castings took every bit of manufacturing expertise available at the time to overcome porosity problems. Where is Ram Induction Today? Ram Induction didn't die with the letter cars. In fact, ram induction is so common today that almost every new engine design incorporates the concept. When you look at those snake-like intake manifolds in the new 300M or the PT Cruiser or the V-10 Viper, you are looking at ram induction.
We will see how it goes. Just want try and make a central place instead of scattered all over. Just started it more develop on it.
I tried to register on the new forum but was told I didn't know my own email so I guess I will pass. Not sure why they don't make it for slightly modified and eliminate the stock classification. If some one with a stock model "A" comes on here I would just assume they want info on modifying it. Not sure why some people have no patience with "Newbies" If you want "Bone Stock" go to the Ford Barn. If you go there and ask about modifying your engine some purist will tell you to go the Hot rod forum I wonder if some don't want to share their information with a guy with a stock engine, next we will have subgroups for overheads and flatheads and we will break that down to single carb/exhaust dual carb/exhaust! I think I will just go out to the shop and F--k something up! PS This latest issue of S O S S tells you all you need to know regarding the model "A" engine oil system, how to modify, what to do, and what not to do! Also noted, Skokie will be producing "B" rods shortly. Now they have Main inserts for "B"'s I hope the bearings will be a little better quality
I looked at the new forum but found it was exclusional. T A and B Fords only. It's not like only Ford ever built a banger. Or only Ford Bangers are raced or were raced. But I have noticed the Ford guys would like to keep it all for them selves. Don't get beat as much that way.
Ford T,A, and Bs were generally referred to as Bangers. Some Chevy and Olds, but who really builds those and good luck finding them. If there is no interest. I'll shut it down. No harm, No foul!
Latest project, I don't want you to think all I do is sit at my computer in my PJ's and lurk and attack newbies with my feeble attempt's at humor. These are "C"'s
personally, I am a fan of C's, they lend themselves to volumetric perfection. D's have a tendancy to get sloppy and lack form with out substantial tuning. oh, you were talking about carb's.
As to the Ford Barn Ryan (HAMB) is now operating it. It is now basicly the same as the rest of the HAMB forums here. It is a very good source for stock "A"'s, some modifications are tolerated.
You should really quit playing with yourself! Not sure of the question from Holland but those particular "C" carburetors are on a model "A" if that helps.
You may be over looking Plymouth and Dodge Bros. Bangers. When the SCTA instegated the V4F class and Morty began his Hop Up Magazine 100 MPH club for the flathead pre 1935 Bangers a 1932 Plymouth powered roadster was the first to step up and claim it's record and T shirt. How do I know this? It was mine. I blew up two Plymouth fours and had three left when I sold out on Plys and stepped up to Dodge Bros. (Not a part of Chrysler Corp. at the time.) Currently Pete Hendrickson holds several Bonneville V4F roadster records with his 1928 Dodge Bros. Fast Four "Banger". I also have two Dodge Bros. 4 cylinder engines and a Morton & Brett OHV conversion for the same. One must be sure that his head is where the sun will shine when defining "Bangers" Just MHO
Sean, I also didn't know why you chose the forum to be Ford exclusive but that won't deter me from giving it a shot. Just add a house for other 4 CYL. engines and it might be successful. Even if there is one guy with an Olds and another with a Plymouth, it won't hurt. Just my 2c.
It's true there will never be a large group of people interested in hopping up other than Ford "Bangers' That I will agree to. But I believe it's interesting to see what anyone who is working with an 80 year old engine, thinking he is going to make it state of the art, is doing. And they won't take up much space. Come on. We need love too.
Hahaha,OK you won me over! I will work on it tonight! Believe me, I'm not just a Ford banger person. I'm also a huge fan of Studebakers. I see your point and will open it up to all antique banger makes.
This is just one jerk's opinion. I'm interested in way too many things I will never own. T-heads Deusey blows my mind, and I appereciate his time to explain how these things work. I MAY someday own an A or T so I read that stuff. I'm in Rich's corner because I own a DB four that I would like to add a Morton and Brett head to if I ever found one. I also own a flathead six, so I need to understand this stuff too. I get FAST and SOSS. Get my drift? I read too much, retain very little. But I'm not sure how many more websites the world needs that all deal with the same thing. If your new site works I will probably follow it too. Good luck with it. The great thing about the HAMB is it's ALL here.
I'm not to enthused with the idea of adding 6 cylinder flat heads, but i can't make those decisions for others. I would be afraid that the forum would get diluted. Now, when I see the Duesenberg photos or those from Rich Fox I get a kinda tingly feeling all over and feel like like I'm going to wet my pants.
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