Ram Theory I dont quite understand, I agree with Sir Isaac, but some of the other stuff bothers me a bit . Here is where the law of inertia comes to play -- because the air was in motion, it wants to stay in motion. But the air can't go anywhere because the valve is shut so it piles up against the valve like a chain reaction accident on the freeway. With one piece of air piling up on the next piece of air on the next on the next, the air becomes compressed. OK This compressed air has to go somewhere so it turns around and flows back through the intake manifold runner in the form of a pressure wave. NOoo? Some energy is released in the action of stopping the flow. This creates a rise in pressure and a positive pressure sound wave that travels back through the intake and the air fuel mixture, the tail end of which is still slowing down in the runner. This pressure wave bounces back and forth in the runner and if it arrives back at the intake valve when the valve opens, it is drawn into the engine. This bouncing pressure wave of air and the proper arrival time at the intake valve creates a form of supercharging. NOoo? When a positive soundwave reaches the open end of a pipe (runner) a portion of it is reflected? (reverted?) as a Negative sound wave which travels back through the mixture. When it reaches the back of the valve it Bounces and returns, still as a Negative sound to the opening where once again some of it returns as a positive and so on. The Math for Long Rams The answer is: 6 Maybe! depends on lots of variables Start the clock the first time the valve slams shut and the pressure wave is formed. The POS wave bounces away from the valve and reaches the end of the 30" tube. Time now: .00223 seconds. The NEG wave bounces back down the 30" tube and hits the closed intake valve. Time now: .00446 seconds. (first 'cycle') The NEG wave bounces off the valve and returns to valve POS (2nd cycle) The POS wave bounces off the valve and returns to valve NEG (3nd cycle) The NEG wave bounces off the valve and returns to valve POS (4nd cycle) The POS wave bounces off the valve and returns to valve NEG (5nd cycle) The NEG wave bounces off the valve and returns to valve POS (6nd cycle) How much energy is left and what effect it will have on the charge is arguable. Hopefully there is enough energy left in the wave to give the charge a little push, in the right direction (or not enough to stuff things up). If the valve is open it will turn the POS wave into a NEG one just when & where we don't need that!! Consider, If it was that simple to calculate, why did a team of Chrysler engineers with all the resourses available to them, need to create adjustable manifolds and do thousands of man-hours of experimentation & testing when five minutes with a slide-ule "ought o dunnit". I suspect it has a lot more to do with Newton than Helmholtz. If the runner is long enough & velocity & charge mass high enough then inertia might prevent the charge from bleeding too much pressure back into the manifold (or atmosphere, for individual runners) before the valve opens for the next intake cycle. Remenber: Sound waves travel at the speed of sound through 'air'. But: It takes Time for 'air' with mass travelling at near the speed of sound to stop and accelerate in the opposite direction. That's what I reckon!
Sorry for the crap pics, but i am just not used to shooting color during the day with lots of people around. i kept rushing my shots to get the peoples out of the frame. Rolleiflex K4B, 400NC. I was given an invite to come shoot the car at thier shop, so, i hope to have much better pictures next time though.
well, it was a bit of toungue in cheek and dumbed down...so look at the basic out lines. as to the "adjustable intake", sometimes you just need to feel it to get it right. also, it could all be just complete bull shit.
It's easier to 'fudge' the theory & the figures to match the actual outcome, than fudge the outcome to match your theory. Saying that, there's a lot of both happening all the time.
The board has been modified for all "antique 4cyls" Ford, Dodge, Chevy, Olds,,,,,,,,,,,,,,etc. Sorry. I'm staying away from the 6cyls. RichFox "I also have two Dodge Bros. 4 cylinder engines and a Morton & Brett OHV conversion for the same." I would like to see the build happen on these.
IDK Dan, It depends on my work week, whether I am dirt track racing that weekend, and I also have to take into account my Ol' Lady too. I know Trad27 would be down to roll over the grapevine in a "modern" with me. When is the Nats pardon my asking but I am a real busy fella, bangers cost alot so I gotta work alot to buy parts for them . Would be another first for me to go and honestly I think the cars there would overwelm me and my slow ass stocker mentality. If my car went any faster though I would probably be maxed out all the time. Just ask Trad27 who the real speed demon was in his old Model T powered by a buick nailhead . First time I drove it solo was a real cannonball run.-Weeks
I would vote NO. Granted I am gonna write "none of the above" on all of the selections for this upcoming election here in Calimexico. This is a 4 banger thread and has plenty of posters and subscribers. Its a niche we live by. Let them start their own monthly thread for 6 banger ugh sounds wierd.-Weeks
First a couple of short comments- Kurtis- I will be glad to post the Shunk and Ollie cam profiles, but I have a lot to write tonight,and have to find the drawings, and scan them--but I will post them. T-Head--Ya gotta love those two main fours! Austin sevens, Nash 4 bangers from the '20's, old White trucks-- Where else can you find an engine with variable displacement? The faster they turn, the longer the stroke of the middle cylinders gets----- Now to the red meat I don't want to get into a pi##ing contest about intake or exhaust lengths, but will only say what I know is fact--lower the RPM, the longer the pipe. Now what I have read. The speed of sound depends on the absolute pressure of the gas, and also the density. The hotter the gas, the lower the density. so taking 1125 FPS as the speed of sound is only correct for 14.7 PSIA and about 20*C, neither of which is typical of an intake or an exhaust passage. Also the amount of time that the valve is open is only important to the equation in that the valve (obviously) has to be open when the pulse gets back there. Lets take an exhaust pipe. The valve opens, and a slug of HOT gas at considerably over atmospheric pressure starts down the pipe. It has inertia. Towards the end of the stroke this inertia tends to continue pulling gas from the cylinder, even though the piston is slowing down. This "slug" of gas travels down the pipe at the speed of sound (for gas at that pressure and temperature) until it reaches the end of the pipe, where most escapes. What does not escape is reflected back up the pipe as a LOW pressure wave to the valve and aids the removal of remaining gas in the cylinder (providing the valve is still open). It is possible for this wave to create up to six pounds per square inch negative pressure and thereby aid in removing more remaining exhaust. Also, if the intake valve is also opening at this time (valve overlap) the negative cylinder pressure is augmented, to increase cylinder filling. All of this only happens at one limited RPM, for any given pipe length, and can at times work very much against what you are trying to accomplish, causing extreme dead spots when trying to accelerate, for instance. This, along with the ever changing pressures and temperatures of the gas in the pipe, make the determination of the correct length a matter of, as the British say, "suck it and see". The exact same principals pertain to the length of the intake tract also. Herb Kephart
Nice photos and restoration! What is the history on this car after its 2nd place finish at INDY in 1914?
it was pulled out of that famous junk yard in NYC in the 50's...cant remember its name. (it had been used as a road car, and was super complete). Briggs Cunningham had it for a long time, now it is taking a respite in the Collier Collection.
I have a question... I'm always kinda stymied as to why the cams in FORD banger motors have lobes that are so pointy. Does that have to do with the diamter of the face of the lifter? Sam
Most likely Caruso's who cut up a few Bugatti's to power his early Midgets before buying an Offy. I thought it looked like the Cunningham car, that is the second car that I know of that has been rerestored by the Collier Collection. They redid the Delage and painted over all that lovely engineturned hood. Back in 1974 John Burgess was giving me a tour of the Cunningham collection and asked if I'd like to hear something run, I picked the Delage. It started instantly, I think just about every car in the place was a runner.
It provides the slowest and constant rate of lift to max. A significant curve in the ramp would accelerate the valve early and slow it down at the top. (and this is Bad...because?) Like R.R. Henry felt that his engines produced "sufficient" power for your purposes. For faster valve speeds with OEM reliability he would have to provide lighter valves, retainers and lifters and better quality springs, plus better brakes, chassis, suspension, tranmission...everything!$$$ The peaky (looking) straight flank style was still being promoted for DIY high-lift regrinds into the 50's. "Just grind the back of the cam to give 1.125" distance heel to lobe; then convert the base to a circle until the circle meets the side of the cam. (diam. 0.75") Oh! by the way, you should reinforce or replace your fibre timing gear or the centre may break from the extra strain..". I assume there are some modern style banger cams out there... asymetrical lobes might be nice.
Here's one for the "Open Minded" among us. You might have heard of Harry Ricardo, Phil Irving, Smokey Yunick, Larry Widmer, Gordon Blair et.al. How many have heard of Somender-Singh? "Somender Singh, celebrated Indian National Champion motorcycle racer, developed a simple Groove technology that consistently provides about 30% fuel efficiency improvement.(also torque increases & smoother running with the elimination of late-burn and/or detonation) Singh's Groove is a small channel cut into the flat area, called "squish", on most engine's cylinder head area where the piston compresses air and fuel at the time of combustion. By substantially increasing turbulence within the cylinder, Singh's Groove enables more of the fuel to be burned and it burns at a faster rate. This promotes cleaner engine exhaust, cleaner oil, more power, lower operating temperature and significantly increased engine power per cycle. BMW has incorporated similar technology in their newest engines, but since Mr. Singh has an undisputable US Patent 6237579 on the technology, his has been proven to be the most efficient Groove design. Mr. Singh has approached all of the major auto manufacturers with a singular response. When times were good, they all required Mr. Singh to sign away any rights that he had in order to even look at the technology in any official way. Since then, Singh's Groove has been proven by hundreds of independent mechanics and engine building professionals. Results and Dynomometer test results can be found at his website http://www.somender-singh.com along with published photographs of engines with and without a Groove showing proof positive that more of the internal surface area has been exposed to highly efficient burn." Heres a link to a video with a nice flathead with a groove shown and a demo on grooving a late 4 valve head...by hand....with a hacksaw & file. Hint: the music is pretty annoying, Keep you sound low until the engine is running. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzMgPZxD7Iw Before posting this here, risking the usual scorn & ridicule, I've looked at heaps of threads & posts on other message boards. I haven't found one where some-one who has actually done it says it's BS. Horsepower results varied, depends on what your starting with. But just about everyone reported more low-down torque, quieter, smoother running, improved economy. There's plenty of opinions as to whats actually happening.. Singh says its up to 'white-coats' to work it out..he just does what has worked for him. So, If it works, whats going on? The grooves seem to perform a few different functions. The first is pretty obvious, It directs some of the charge from the squish area as a jet into the chamber. Generally this is towards the spark plugs, but it could be directed into those deep dark corners in a flatty chamber where people like to cut recesses to unshroud the back of the valves. The second thing it does is release captured pressure from the squish zone at the top of the stroke. This would help the engine to be mechanically smoother and quieter and easier on banger cranks, bearings, head-gaskets. Singh recommends min. squish clearance be raised to 0.070" instead of the usual 0.040". Some (most) of the racers still use 0.040 and query why? One drag car who did increase clearance was unable to keep front wheels on the ground!? lots more torque, I guess. I think I have a possible answer. When the piston begins its descent It will create a low pressure area above it. What 'rushes in' is the charge from the edge of the combustion chamber. Not burning yet, cooling more by the expansion and contacting the piston and head at a cool point. This mixture would normally be lost, or burn too late to do work or ignite abruptly (detonate) after the primary burn in the main chamber. Here is where the third function might be operating. The groove that let the charge out of the chamber might be able to work as fuse, with a hot burning jet directed into the dead charge in the squish zone stiring and igniting it to burn at the same time as the main burn, with a corresponding improvement of temp,expansion & torque. Does it work? I don't know, I havn't tried it, yet. Plenty of people world-wide have and seem very happy! It would be Very Easy to try on a banger, No tricky machining, positive results detectable by real world driving. What we need is some-one who has one of those overshaved, excessive HC, practically unusable, garage wall ornament, engine busting heads. Nothing to lose, if there's no improvement put it back up on the wall, no-one will see the grooves. I do not Know Mr Singh or have any interest his company, (besides this academic one). I looked at his stuff a couple of years ago, thought it was interesting and then forgot about it (as you do!). I found it again researching side-valve chamber shapes in modern patents, and went for another look. It's still, (actually more), interesting with regard to improving old Bangers.
You are right about this, I have also heard that it works. I have also seen it done with pistons. I also checked with a friend of mine that vintage races a Hudson Hornet. He has tried all of the various different heads and has found the Clifford Research head it the most advanced, so that might be another one to take a good look at.
I have done this in High compression 65% nitro 2 stroke engines to eliminate detonation, It works, and I have been planing on trying it on a banger when I get a head I can work with. .
I'd like to see that. Camshaft experimentation with advanced inlet lobes wouldn't be a bad idea too. I have seen cyl. heads with grooves cut into the valves and ports with no real gain in HP or efficiency but when done to the chambers only, there is evidence of higher torque and HP figures.
That's one of the prettiest engine's ever made, and it has a formidable reputation to go along with it. Ahh, the French. If only they spent some more time developing the side valve design.
The peaky cam lobe... the small base circle associtated with most of the early cams is part of the problem, this of course is exacerbated by may regrinds, which as noted below basically reduce the base circle and foot of the cam in search of greater lift. in cam design, the first 0-2 degrees of the openning flank is more important and can do more good for a cam than all the lift at the top. To help this a smooth controlled openning of the valve can be encouraged through the use of a larger base circle (look at many modern cams, there is more base circle radius than over all lift). A poor openning flank design and grind consitency leads to poor idle, starting habits and exessive tappet wear.
Cross sectional drawings of one of the most successful and widely copied engines in the world. The DOHC, 16 valve, the 1913 Peugeot.
Herb PMed me about some details on the Mercer. Here are good cross sectional drawings of it also. You can see how compact the combustion chamber is for a T-Head being 6.8:1. The other detail Herb was interested in was the lifter, it is plain, very light and actuated be a lever follower which take does not subject the lifter to any side thrust. This was two years before it was used on the Peugeot. One other really brilliant feature that Findlay Porter Robinson the engineer added was by changing the thickness of shims between the crankcase and the bronze support you can advance or retard the cam timing.
Thanks Guys for making this the best BANGER mouth to my date. I broke some ribs and F@@ked my knee last week and all this info has been lost of fun. I bet you guys cant do it better next mouth. Not that I wont you guys to slow down this mouth we still have a long time to go. later Bill
I need some advise. My friend offered me this Carburetor, it is a Winfield Model S, it also says S 41 B. It has the 4 bolt mounting that I know Winfields had but it also has 2 large bolts outside of that flange. Is this a decent carburetor for a B motor? or should I pass on it? He has not given me a price and I want to be totally fair with him and pay him what it's worth. Thanks!
Be careful what you wish for. Here's a pic of what they were working on to replace the heavy, complicated, expensive DOHC. Unfortunately, World War 1 intervened and the plans were shelved. All records of this work were believed to have been stolen by the Germans during WW2. They intended to continue serious development of the G28T, but the blueprints were removed, after the fall of Berlin, by the Russians, for incorporation in the GAZ. Development was again halted, this time on the orders of Stalin. He apparently considered it to be far too "decadant & bourgeois" for the Russian proletariat. It is suggested, however, that he may have had one built for his private, weekend use. or something like that!
Woah!! So much to comment ob each day!! First, the pix of the Miller and the Peugeot--Just stunning examples of engineering-- not just stunning for the era, but STUNNING! I read about Singh's developments in SOS, and frankly thought that it was a bunch of hype. But now, it seems that others, not connected to him, have tried it with positive results. The thing that I noticed at first was that the grooves were positioned to direct the mixture in the squish area in the direction of the plug-but then along comes that third photo-- Daryl-- your theory makes a lot of sense to me. Have to "ponder" this (as the old folks sat---like I ain't!) Blowing the unburnt crap out of the "corners", might be just as effective as getting it to the plug.Hmmmmm. I think that it is generally accepted that the first .050" of valve opening has little effect on flow through the valve--all modern valve timings are given with the valve .050" off the seat. The blend of base circle to lobe is only important from a noise (and to a much lesser extent, wear) standpoint. Note that Ford A cams have a ramp on opening, but none on closing according to the drawing. The lever lifter on the Mercer, and the proposed Peugeot can, as T Head's pointed out be used to change the opening and closing points. This is the same idea as the sloped solid lifters i wrote about earlies, except that it can be changed WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING, by making the pivot point on an eccentric. Someone want to cut some slots in the side of your prized block? And by no means least--A hearty THANK YOU to T Head and 88Daryl88 for the great posts. This has to be one of the months that will go down in HAMB history Bill- hope that ya ain't hurting too bad! Get well! Kurtis- still looking--but I'll find them sooner or later. Herb
The Jalopy Journal
