Maybe O/T: Is Detroit dead?

^^^ what's unfair?

If you CAN grow/produce anything cheaper here, you'd be able to sell it.

 

If the tariffs were raised, the countries that loan us the money to finance our deficit, would stop loaning. Then they start dumping off the stock they have in American companies. We'd pray for a simple recession then. It's a global economy folks, we don't control it anymore unless we were to do something drastic.

 

it is certainly a VERY complicated situation with no easy answer and no one single "problem". as much as i HATE working in the factory it does pay the bills and i want this to all turn around, not only so i can keep a job but so the economy and people around me can do well too.

as far as quality of American cars goes. i've been at GM almost 10 years and in that time quality has been stressed to us big time. i understand it was'nt always that way before my time but it is that way now. we've been told that our quality is much better than the Jap companies now. i forget where that info came from but it was one of the big consumer reporting companies.
at any rate, i don't think the quality is much of an issue at this point but there are many other issues and there is the stigma of the poor quality from the 70s and 80s to get over as well. i drive a 94 Ford Escort (it was free from my ex-father in law). it has 158,000 miles on it and i have'nt put a single part on it in nearly 3 years (aside from brake pads and tires. normal wear stuff). i change the oil ever 3,000ish miles, put gas in it and go. it could probably use some struts but thats not unreasonable considering the mileage on the factory ones. after today i won't be able to say i never put any money into it cause i put it in the ditch last night in a rain storm and bend and/or broke something. it's vibrating badly... point is. i'm not even a Ford guy realy but this little car i can't say a bad thing about.

 

It will not change until the large companies stop being drivin by the stock markets. How many CEO's have their large salaries butrussed by the companies profit margins. Hell they're just doing what the share holders want.

 

^^^^Yep..
The company I work for was recently bought out by another company and made public....not long after, major layoffs, some explaination about cutting costs, even though the company has been making record $$$ the last couple of quarters.....
I plan on moving soon....find a job with a small outfit, they treat ya better....

 

Very interesting article in the Money section of USA Today newspaper today about where cars are made and how much US/Canada parts are used in them. Ford Expedition and the Crown Victoria were the highest with 95% US/Canada made parts. GM's HHR was at 41%. Honda's Accord was 70%. Overall the big three make 79% of their parts in the USA/Canada. Honda was the highest of the Japanese brands at 59%, with the overall average just below 50% for all of them. Very interesting article, here is the link to read it. Check it out.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-22-american-usat_N.htm

 

i wish you the best of luck with your job hunt.an interesting fact got from a honda ex (he was straight from japan,cool car guy though) back in '04 was they preferd there molds to be built in germany or the usa. he said that it cost more up front but was cheaper in the long run and they had so many issues with china and s.e. asia built molds that it wanst even funny.towards the end of my time with that mold shop, it seamed that the only people who were spending moeny on new tools were the japs.90% of our repair work was for the big three that was built in s.e. asia and was staight up junk, but they saved a buck to build it.i was hoping to make it for another 5 years and be debt free, but it looks like i'll be trying to survive, just hope my '84 escort will survive. Trout

 

It's not buying foreign cars that is killing Detroit or America. Just check your tv, radio, cd player, ipod, toaster, microwave, stove/oven, diswasher, clock radio, lamps, blender, refrigerator, vacuum, tools or even your fuckin' Levi's and see where they arte made. If they aren't made in China, they're made in Malaysa or some other fuckin place. If you try to buy american now, you either wouldnt be able to afford it or couldn't find the things you need to survive.

I unwrapped a dora the explorer magical castle (made in china) that had about 40 goddamn twist ties holding shit in place-took me 15 minutes to get it apart. How long you figure it took the kids in china making 30 cents an hour to put it all together?

My dad own a tool and die shop and has been a surface drinder for 43 years, he always figured they couldn't ship the surface grinding overseas to have it done, he was wrong...

The Automakers have fucked all the local companies by shipping every thing to china to have it done, so Is it really the hondas they are making here in America by American workers or the companies saving money by creating the biggest fuckin ripple effect.

 

There are two choices:

1) Free Trade (no tariffs)
2) Protectionism (tariffs)

Both are hotly debated economic models, however currently the Legislative and the Executive branches favor Option #1.

It's not very pure right now, so there are problems in execution. Luckily the people are armed, so it all works out at the lower levels of society (dead, and the dying).

 

Daimler bought Chrysler for $36 billion. There are two offers on the table to buy them for $4.5 billion. That's nearly a 90% reduction. Don't look for them to survive. GM is showing off three cars designed by Koreans and look like it as their future. But Detroit tried economy in the early '60's and no one bought.

 

the early 60's was 10-15 years too early.

those execs should start golfing w/ the oil execs so they can get the timing right....

 

Remember after WWII, and the epithet, "cheap Jap junk"?

Since then , the Japanese learned about quality and have been eating the USA's presumed lunch.

South Korea is learning quality. Those southeast Asain manufacturers may well, too.

We can indulge in all the nostalgia we want. Or we can rise to meet and beat the competition. Our country was founded in part on the principle that we are entitled to the right to the PURSUIT of happiness. Not to the right to happiness itself.

 

You can't beat the Japanese with the idiots we have running the shows. A major problem is perception and those at GM and Ford do nothing about that perception because they are total idiots.

The wife gets new cars. We have a 2003 Windstar that has had absolutely nothing break on it. My previous car was a 1994 Caprice wagon that had 200,000 miles on it when I sold it and it's still going.

Those who have the ability to change this perception have been told over and over and over what alot of the problem is and continue to ignore it.

Ford had a good thing going with the Taurus 15 years ago. Now I'm not talking about what I think is good but what those who make or break a manufacturer think. Unlike what Honda and Toyota did, which was simply make yearly improvements on the Accord and Camry, Ford milked an old design for as long as they could and let it go stale so they could introduce "the next new thing".

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

All along the masses are saying "Well that Accord was a good car, I'm going to get another" because they are comfortable with it. Consumer Reports are singing it's praises while mentioning the Ford is a new car and they can't recommend it.

The Caprice was a damn good car for what it was. It had a loyal following. GM should have just continued with it, making improvements year after year as opposed to killing it to make more SUV's.

The problem isn't so much in the cars and the ability to make cars but in the idiots running the shows. The very same people making Fords are making Honda's.

I will not buy another Ford when they time comes after reading the new CEO got 28 million for 4 months work. His pay should be tied entirely to performance. Instead it seems so far he is simply going to make the same stupid mistakes and take his millions when he is replaced.

 

I live just outside Coventry in the UK.....It used to be the home of Triumph Cars, Morris Engines, Jaguar, Hillman, Humber, Alvis and Chrysler (UK). Not forgetting Triumph Motorcycles in Meriden and many more. All gone, even Jaguar no longer produces cars at Browns lane and Peugeot have just fucked off to Croasia.....why because it's cheaper to produce cars some place else.
It's not all doom and gloom here though...there are still 3000 small engineering companies here doing more specialist work proving there is work for trained people but mass manufacturing has gone.
Looking at Detroit from the outside it seems to have been declining for a long time and until its reliance on mass manufacturing changes it won't recover. Coventry was declining for sumat like 30 years with all and sundry moaning about "no jobs in the factories for our kids".....well kids don't work in car factories, they work in retail, office jobs, service industries and hundreds of other areas and most of them have no real trade but get by well enough anyway.
Why am I saying this...Heavy industry and mass manufacturing in the Western world is on the decline as it's cheaper to make stuff in China...don't blame the Commies in China as they don't demand $40 per hour (not having a go just stating the fact!) neither do their factories have to adhere to strict planning, heath and safety or pollution regs like we have to in the west.....it's cheap
. To put that in to perspective BMW have a factory in Vietnam....they build BMWs as well as they do in Germany (if not better). In Germany they pay the workers a min of around $28 per hour..In Vietnam it's $7 for the same job. India now is a big centre for computer programming, a salary in the UK is £40-50K in India it's £15k.....and you really can't blame workers abroad. Blame the massive companies that you used to work for.....

 

Just because you aren't working in the U.S. or Europe, doesn't automatically mean your employer 'treats you like crap'.

That's true in some places - here as well as there - but by no means the rule. You don't think Toyota's workers would keep showing up to work if it involved getting assfucked by management on a daily basis, do you?

There are plenty of jobs in Japan.

I wasn't alive in the fifties, let alone in Taiwan. But I lived there in '90-91.

Back then, you were starting to see manufacturing move to mainland China, and Singapore. Where the dollar (or kuai) goes further.

You can bitch about foreign labor all you want, but manufacturers here will be fucked, as long as:

1. CEO's are hired who can make profits temporarily by selling off parts of the company (just like parting out a car), and take off with a big 'parachute' of stock options when they leave. Make the stock option in the form of a trust fund which cannot be sold or traded - only the dividends cashed out. So when the stock becomes valueless, the money flow stops.

2. Unskilled labor makes huge money. I busted my ass working on cars and other machinery for a long time. I've also worked assembly lines. Assembly jobs are generally something that you can be shown how to do without any schooling, or investment in tools. Why should a job that anyone can learn to do, and not require schooling, tools, or other investment, reward someone with an upper-class income? Because the CEO and CFO make bank? If you want their check, get their education, and do their job. And see #1 above.

3. The U.S. government allows goods to be imported which were made under conditions significantly different than those which American companies are forced to operate under. If Wally World wants to import toys with chrome plate done under environmentally irresponsible conditions (no EPA equivalent), or with unsafe labor practices (no OSHA equiv.), there should be a sizeable tarrif in place in order to protect those companies who assemble toys or do chrome plating domestically. Protectionist? I guess so. But why is that a dirty word? Our laws protect the environment or the employee; how about protecting those industries working under those regulatory burdens?

Anyway, off the soapbox, for the next guy.

-bill

 

Here is my take on the Detroit..........well North America's (That includes Canada) troubles.

I live in a province where we are rich in resources.........fishing, gold, nickle, hydro power and of course the hot one right now..........off shore oil. But my province is still one of the poorer provinces in Canada.

So i'll pass my dime on my issues and then your issue.

Upper Goverment has this wonderful group of friends, all whom make 7 large and need other ways of increasing their wealth. So the feds ban the local fishermen from fishing, and let the foreigners fish the shit out of what is there.........about as smart as a shit fight. But the majority of people live in centeral Centeral Canada and they get rewards from this. Our other resources like minerals and oil..........the fed govt takes majority of the cream of the royalites and sticks its finger up to us with the too bad so sad attitude. Our hydro.........holy shit, the feds will not let us bring it across Quebec to sell it to you guys unless we let them skim the cream........My ass is getting sore from the big gun attitude. Christ, we close fish plants where they only make 12 bucks an hour so fish can be cent to china to be processed for .50 cents and hour.......and who buys this shit?

Now you dont have to be a rocket scientist to know you need money to make money, But as junkyardog32 said.......we are all running ona a credit system. And you cant make money that way. So the goverment keeps us in a "please sir........may i have more" society. And if business doesnt make money, employees dont make it and spend it .........so the spin off spins to dust. Only bright side is we dont have an illegal work force like many USA states.

Now to your issue..........Motor City..........a place i once dreamed of visiting.

We some how forget the pride, i feel that we sell our pride for cheap. So i can buy a China or Japan car for cheaper, and forget about my neighbour who makes fan belts for north american cars. Heck, my one junk car wont hurt his job.......will it? Duh!!!!! Then we get our super stores who buy import products and sell them on the same shelves as our quality made at home products. But 5 bucks on a pair of jeans...........shit my cousin in another state wont be hurt if i buy 1 pair of import jeans............will they?

Combine this with the union issues of the big 3, where some workers can bring home insane amounts of money and pensions that make some peoples eyes hit their glasses. And kaboom...........Houstin....we have a problem. Unions make more when the employee makes more. And i have yet to see a rep drive a small truck or car.....nooooooooo way. They spend the members money like it is change. I call it a shame. Yea they protect you on one hand and rape you with the other........

Lets combine this with the Upper management of the Big three. I'd like to know the amount and perks that come with this. I cant see them shopping around for good hotel rates when it is vacation time. There has to be a reasonable pay, yes they have stress and responsibilities..........but, once they leave their current job they land into another 7 large job. Good fuck'n grief.........and everyone else scatters to find a job to keep the house. If they are that good they should be able to turn the auto indusrty around..........with the help of the employees and unions.

And dont forget our friends the banks and credit card companies where you can sell your soul, no money down and buy a house.....for which you sell sperm for the rest of your life to pay for the damn thing which you can barely afford to keep up with the intrest rates. But wait, you can fix it up and have a vacation as well! At only 18% we will lend you as much for as long as you want..............and we stare into the light and fill our pockets. Only problem it is debt we are filling them with, long term pain for short term gain..... All while the goverments who consist of players that own shares in these wonderful and helpful loanshark operations laugh their way to the bank. So they aint going to step in and help.

Now if the goverment was stratigic and helped business succeed in all states and provinces, there would be more unity and shared wealth. But............then the players lose..........so what the fuck am i saying.

Only thing we can control is our pride and our spending to try and dig us out. Buy local, then state or province and if all else buy made in USA or Canada. If we support our own, we will crawl out............slowly.

And yea, i can hear...........honda is assembled here.....but what manufacturer produces majority of the parts in your own country?


Maybe i am wrong...................but i am still proud and buy very littl import unless there is no and i mean no substitute.

Ok, i'm finished bitching now

Leon

 

The Automakers? Are they supposed to hold all this together? They are a business the last time I checked. If the labor is cheaper in China, that's where it goes my friend. The trade policies and foreign policies have sold us out, not the automakers. Some of that work comes back because the "total cost" i.e., fixing what the overseas labor fucks up turns out to be greater, but not much of it. Blame the folks that have controlled congress. They aren't supposed to be a business I don't think.

 

How many of you shop for your shit at Walmart and buy your tools at Harbor Freight? Yeah, that's what I thought. Talk with your wallet and stop blaming "the man."

 

Sorry.............not me. I only buy Hot Wheels there. As for the rest.....local my friend. And i choose this because the only man who will take care if me .............is me.

 

i was doing just fine until bushes gas prices arrived. about everyone i know was. i'm not to the point of eating out of trash cans yet and won't be, but, it sucks anyway. the fuel prices drive up the cost of everything you buy foreign and domestic. republicans love bad economys. they thrive. get the fuel prices down and thing will get better quick.


don't blame ceos and unions for job loses. blame yourself. the greedy bastards are us not them. when you shop for anything do you look for the made in usa label first or the price? we want ,no, demand high wages for our precious time and in return we want everything given to us.

we could fix this problem by buying as many us made goods as possible. although that would mean sacrificing some of our hard earned money and thats not going to happen, when we can just sit back and bitch and theorize and wait for someone else to fix it.

 

#108 , if only there were more strategic central economic planning, we'd have an economic powerhouse like the Soviet Union.

 

Very well said.

 

Wow. I thought this thread was dead.

I guess an update is in order.

After much soul searching and kicking and screaming, I applied for "unemployment". Spent almost an hour on the computer, looking up past wages, filling in boxes, etc. Only to get to the last page, where you get a confirmation number saying you will actually recieve a benefit, only to have the agency say that I am unable to file a claim over the computer, and I must call my claim in.

Ok.

So, I go upstairs and call it in. Spend close to another hour on the phone, only to get to the same point (the female on the other end was doing the EXACT same thing I already did, but "you have to play the game", right?) and have the computer tell her what it already told me.

So, we go through it all over again, on a different program. She assures me all is well, I get my conf. #, all is good.

Until the day before I am supposed to "call in" to verify I'm still unemployed. Then, I get a letter saying that my "claim is under protest" because the female I talked to 2 weeks prior typed in that I was "fired" from a job. The one I left to work for the company I got laid off from. So, a State worker screwed up, and I got a letter about it.

So, I call the UIA back, explain to them what happened, they're like "no big deal, we'll change it for you" and life is good.

Well, I call in, and guess what, no check.

Why? Because I worked a seasonal job, as a second job, 18 months ago. The law says that any employers who you've worked for in the last 18 months have to pay for your benefits. I missed the cutoff by 2 weeks. And it had a "flag" on the claim, that nobody else bothered to look into. Another way for Grand-moles army of idjits to hold onto a couple hundred bucks for another 2 weeks to make the interest, I guess.

Funny how none of the 3 other people I talked to mentioned that fact, even after they knew it (it was a cider mill job, I told them all about it).

It eventually got straightened out (sorry to the guy I talked to, he got an earfull), and I got the only 2 weeks of un-enjoyment I ever hope I have to get in my life.

Yes, it was easier to find a job.

I'm building golf course/turf equipment at a Deere dealer. It's quite a pay cut (over $10/hr) but it beats the hell outta getting unemployment.

Thanks to all who've offered things, and Bless anyone else who's gotta go through this shit.

Jay

 

When I can, I don't buy at Wal-Mart and I always, that's in always look for the product made in the U.S.A. There are times I'm out of luck.

I have never bought anything from Harbor Freight.

It used to drive my wife batty because I checked where everything was made before buying it. Now she comes home and shows me "look, It's made in the U.S.A."

 

unions and politics are bleeding Detroit dead. old school businesses dying and new business wont move in due to union / labor / tax issues. look forward to the upside of the cycle-- seeing how the city will eventually (and hopefully) reinvent itself.

Im originally from Michigan. Sad story.

-scott noteboom

 

Not all companies in Detroit are doing poorly. Last week I got a raise, a large raise that I didn't ask for. I guess they appreciate me as an employee. I thank God every day that I found a great company with awesome benifits and am doing a job I really enjoy. It takes some searching but these companies are out there.

We are always hiring due to expansion. I have informed a number of HAMB guys through the years about positions we are hiring for and as of yet not one has taken me up on my offer/ or possible offer of employment. One even went so far as to tell me he didn't have a resume and had no intention of making one.

 

Jay,

I hear ya' on the 'unenjoyment' thing. Been there - done that - got the stretch marks.

The people at the unemployment office treated me like a deadbeat asshole for trying to get back a portion of wages I was forced to pay to them.

I hope neither of us has to ever go thru it again.

-bill

 

Just a few random comments.
I've got a buddy who went to work at Toyota, here in SA.
He's in the paint department. he says the number of times they inspect, and reinspect it, and then certify it is near rediculous.
They know how long each job takes, to the second. If a job takes a minute, and you do it in a minute and six seconds, thats 10% loss of efficiency. they don't put up with it. He busts his ass, $16.00 an hour starting pay. Lots of new businesses and new jobs created by small companies that supply and service the new plant. Lot of new houses being built, for the workers who can now afford to buy one. A few random individuals (like one who volunteed the info above) that made some dough on real estate appreciation. Coincidentaly my Buddy who owns a bike shop says sales picked up, from young guys who now work at Toyota. So did your manufacturing job get shipped overseas, or to Texas?
Anyone who wants to blame anyone else for their troubles is part of the problem.
Yes, the world is changing. Always has, always will. What makes you think this change is really any different from the changes faced by other nations, or this one, at other times.
Do I like what's happening, hell no.
Did I like the past better than the present, hell yes.
What's my solution? deal with it.
If everyone stops pissin and moanin; analyses their own situation and deals with it, the problem is solved. Instead everyone bitches until some politician promises to fix it if we give him more power & more money, which a hell of a lot of people buy into. So keep believing one party, or one politician, is 1 % better than the other, and enjoy the ride down the slippery slope. keep expecting someone else to fix it and you can put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. They won't fix it, cause they can't, and their top priority is to get the power and keep it, not save your sorry ass.