Messing with a VIN tag can get you an orange jump suit!

Hey, beats the hell out of talking about a topic that has been beat to death, buried, reserected, beat again, ridden hard and put up wet more times than carters got pills.

But what the hey....It is entertaining to say the least!

 

AHHH...DON'T BE SCARED OF THAT ORANGE JUMP SUIT!!!...GET SOME MONEY ON YOUR BOOKS..GET A LONG JOHN TOP AND SOME NICE SNEAKERS....LOAD UP ON RAMEN AND CHIPS...MAYBE SOME OATMEAL AND GET A LOT OF COFFEE...NOTHING TO IT MAN...I CAN NOT EVEN MAKE OUT THE VIN TAG ON MY 31...THE FUZZ ANIN'T GOT NOTHING ON ME
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I am probably already wanted for removal of the catalytic converter on something or another.....whats another 10 years for creativity with an engraving machine!

 

Going long here folks, you know me...
In response to the quotes noted below...

A...I'm with you there. education as well as the law itself has been modified for political expediency. This is executive corruption. This is where the cops need to be strong against corrupt governance. It's where they need to be the law like good old fashioned hardened cops and enforce or allow what's right instead of "just doing their job".

B...The Constitution does not grant one single right to any person. The Constitution grants powers to office.
Persons are free under the protection of law and may do as they wish unless it is forbidden.
Officers of the public trust are bound under the rule of law and may only do (within the scope of their office) as the law requires and nothing more.
These powers are subject to the 10th amendment which defines and clarifies that ANY powers not explicitly delegated to the federal government are reserved to the States and that ANY powers not explicitly delegated to the Fed or the States are reserved to the people.
This means that if the Fed refuses or fails to exercise it's authority to create law and regulation and carry out enforcement unique to each article of authority, then each article of authority reverts to the state and then to the people.
It also means that the Fed was prohibited from delegating those authorities outside the body of the federal government to which they are granted. they must revert to the States and if the States don't act then they return to the people or persons who own those powers by natural right.
"The People" in this amendment does not mean a public entity as in "The People Of California" as the state or local governments would refer to themselves in court.
According to the 10th amendment "The People" are the individual persons inhabiting the nation and are entities separate from both the federal government and the state governments (including all subsequent authorities under the state constitution).

They can lawfully seize any property suspected of being contraband but only to protect it as evidence. Once it has been established that the property is not contraband or required as evidence it must be returned to it's owner.
(I'm not getting into property gained from illegal activities here).
Ownership or "Title" is contingent upon a package of evidence. "Certificate of Title" and matching Vin are 2 of them. registration, possession, and a bill of sale are others. a bill of sale is the instrument which transfers ownership.

C... Possession is 9/10ths of the law and papers are the rest. When there is a discrepancy involving any of the articles of evidence supporting ownership it clouds the Title and due process may require clarification.
Private property ownership is a natural right supported by the Constitution.
If the law requires a Certificate of Title to accompany the Bill of Sale to lawfully transfer ownership in a thing then that controlling authority is bound to provide a Certificate of Title.
They can establish a due process but they cannot make it impossible.
Exigent circumstances... they cannot create a due process or enforce a regulation which prohibits safe and orderly exercise of a right or a lawful privilege.

D...Even if the numbers don't match and the paperwork is not in order, possession is the basic claim of ownership, and the bill of sale is the instrument which transfer's ownership

F...They might require due process to run it's course with investigation to see if there be any higher claim than yours of ownership or unlawful possession.
There would have to be a record of foul play involving the property to establish that because the government cannot normally hold an ownership interest in private property. They (the government) cannot make the determination that your claim to ownership is invalid without a higher claim by another private person.
They cannot make the higher claim themselves without providing evidence they purchased it or owned it prior to your possession.
If the governing authority fails or refuses to provide a certificate of title the court does have the ultimate authority to rule. You would have to exhaust due process and then petition the court with an affidavit making your claim of ownership in the thing. If the court rules in your favor granting you "Title" after review and finding no higher claim in the thing... going against that ruling and not issuing Certificate of Title would be in contempt.

What the courts are most concerned about are due process, evidence, and the standard of highest and best use,purpose,etc.
As long as you can establish that your claim is bona fide and highest and best you have the law on your side.

 

Torchman is 100% correct, in theory. In practice, however, it often does not work out this way. You bear all of the risk and expense. You might very well win in the end, and you will be right, broke, and likely still car-less.

Remember kids, the the the law cannot break the law to enforce the law, but they do it anyway.

 

All I'm saying is follow appropriate procedure and if that doesn't go anywhere file a claim of ownership with the court. I'm not saying one should try to use the system to get away with anything fraudulent.
If it's an automobile they MUST issue a title after you've prooved ownership.
They can decide to not issue titles for a class of vehicle like atv's or minibikes, or for a class of automobiles like those older than 19XX but they cannot single out one automobile if they title any automobiles...equal protection of the law.
even if the car isn't legal for use on US highways they would have to issue title but they could refuse to register it.
Titles certify ownership which is a right.
Registration certifies permission to operate on a public highway which is a privilege. It is a right to operate on private property just not on public property.
every state has a procedure to get it done, they must. There's just hoops to jump through

 

the constitution..no..

the bill of rights..yes

We the people gave it to them..they didnt give it to us.

 

Absolutely correct! An "A+" for someone else who paid attention in American History class!!!

 

Or your mattress...

 

The difference between the US and Europe is We have no "crown lands". The highest claim to private property and personal property lies in the individual not in the state. If you look up Land Patents you will find that all realestate comes under US law by capture and purchase and the US government was not allowed to "OWN" it. The constitution required for the US government to divide the property up and distribute it to the people who lived in the land. Property transfered from the US government to the people is theirs and their heirs and assigns for ever, the gov. is not allowed to take it back by force and their is no higher claim than the chain of ownership registered in the land patent at the county registrar.
People have tried to Europeanize our sovereign ownership rights and make them subject to a higher claim by the state. You might not have the ability to use yur property in any way you see fit and you might have to pay a tax on it but only another private citizen an make a higher claim of ownership against your possession. It is simply unlawful to declare an item stolen and void your possession of it without evidence of theft which would require a police report alleging an incidence of theft and a description in that report of the property from a victim who previously possessed the property, who owned it, and where it was taken from.
There must be a claim against your possession made.

 

And all US courts became admirality courts in 1933, right?

-Dave

 

-----------------oh shit ,now you tell me-----------

 

so what are you telling me, I now can only molest dry deer???

 

Legality is in the details, There are no convictions unless you get caught.......

As a hotrodder it's better to work on not getting caught than wasting your time understanding your theoretical legal position.

that's my .02 on this now derailed and beaten to death topic

 

How was it derailed???

 

I was watching DEA on spike tonight....unless you got a money counter and a stack of rubber bands...i really would not worry about it.....these boys have bigger fish to fry.....brett
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The world is coming to an end in 2012 (so I hear), so shut up and drive your car before it is too late.

 

I dunno. when your in the judge's house courts court aint it? they examine the case and compare it to the law right?
Your not going to be able to abuse the system to get out of paying taxes or to discover who really killed Kennedy or to make Obama show his real birth certificate
I'm with the other guy. I've got a saying...
The first rule about doing anything "wrong" is don't get caught.
If you might get caught, then you will get caught. maybe not the first time but eventually.
every criminal enterprise is doomed to fail, mostly because it's a criminal doing it and whatever he was doing most people wouldn't do if it were legal.
Orange jumpsuits riding up your crack, Plastic Jesus slippers, krakkerheads and smoking bugler are not for me.

 

Not true a modified Vin is an offense in every state and a federal violation to boot and has been used frequently. Granted it's not an every day type violation and police bothering to check is infrequent but it does happen.

Usually it is a stop for something else or an accident that leads to everything being checked with the well known fine toothed comb. The drivers attitude has a lot to do with any violation including this one.

As to the knowledge needed by individual police officers to check millions of different vin locations it's really very simple an insurance industry sponsored group NATB (national auto theft bureau) has a giant database with the location of the public and private locations for any vehicle you can name in VIN, serial numbers, and engine number decoding so the average police officer doesn't need to know anything all he has to do is have dispatch call the 24hr NATB number and all the info needed is right there instantly no personal knowledge necessary.

NATB also has digital photos of all the different rivets used to attach vin plates and they can be forwarded right to police vehicle that have computer terminals and compared to yours again no personal knowledge needed.

As to the "ownership is 9/10s of the law" theory that just doesn't hold water either. Possession of or use of modified vins and or pop rivets is a prima facie case (needs no further proof to bring charges). In this case the vehicle itself is an "Instrument of the crime" and subject to forfeiture.

There is a process for getting the car released that involves proving the origins of the vehicle and ownership BUT if you had those in the first place why did you modify the vin?? And you still have to deal with the criminal charges of the modified vin not just the ownership issues.

This whole process can take years and the vehicle sits in some outdoor impound area deteriorating everyday it sits there buy the time the procees is over there may be just a rusted hunk of iron left and no the state is not liable to return the vehicle in the original condition as it was an "instrument of the crime" and must be held until all legal issues are dealt with by the courts.

And if it doesn't have a proper vin number it can't be registered unless you go through the composite vehicle route and get a new vin assigned by the designee authorized in your state.

During my 20+ years as a State Trooper (and only 10 0f them on the road as a road Trooper) I probably "confiscated" 6 or 7 cars (zero Hamb friendly ones) and I would guess that is about average with the auto theft squads doing double that.

But we really hate doing them because the paperwork trail can't be closed until EVERYTHING is adjudicated in the courts and that means one more useless report reading "no progress in this case" monthly for the years for these things to be finished and of those 6-7 cars NOT ONE WAS RETURNED TO THE OWNER all of them went to the crushers to be DESTROYED.

But motorcycles are another OT problem I probably did 20-25 motorcycles for the same thing and it's a hoot to see a Hells Angel with tears in his eyes digging out the nice plastic filler on the head of his frame to expose the Vin number as is should be displayed.

Bottom line it can and does happen and is not worth it when every state has some sort of composite vehicle system that can be used to get a vin for your pride and joy.

 

If you become an ALLIACE MEMBER . Rivit that little hunk ofAluminum ,to the firewall.They wount"t bother you. (90,000 + strong ) Put it in your glove box.If you get searched they will find it and let you go. Join the ALLIANCE , Maybe the officer is a member. In any case you will be okay. Unless your crookid ,then your pretty much Fucked............

 

My personal view is that what I own is mine and I'm willing to defend it. Just like good fences make good neighbors. Lock up your cars and don't give anybody a reason or an opportunity to lay claim to it.

 

What ever you might read Dizzyearth did not suggest that the simple process in the following link could be used to create a DMV indistinguishable VIN plate.

http://www.streetmachineclub.com/Projects/Project.aspx?id=146238

I am Dizzyearth and I do not approve this message!

 

A crime is a crime ,
But if you don't get caught what is it, A money maker......
Views expressed by me are not entirely true and I can't be held liable for anything that I've said past or present.Gotta go ,My parole officer is on the phone ,He's got some killer smack for sale...HaHa HA

 

Thanks for the professional opinion claymore.

 

A couple of citations for Michigan HAMBsters to contemplate:

Emphasis added.

Emphasis added.

Note the lack of an intent element

The statute goes on to state that the possession of the die stamps for making Vehicle Identification Numbers or of the special rivets that hold on VIN tags by anyone other than a motor vehicle manufacturer, a motor vehicle parts supplier under contract with a motor vehicle manufacturer, or a law enforcement officer in the official performance of his or her duties is a felony.

I’ve got some opinions on this statute and the Federal statute cited by the OP, but I ain’t sharing on the HAMB. Malpractice liability and all that. Come hire me, and I’ll write you a nice letter all about it.

-Dave

 

Tabarnac!!! This thread has gone way off...

 

It might be the law big cheeze but it'd be an illegal law. It constitutes a taking without remuneration, It assumes that the state has the authority to regulate private or personal property ownership.
The attachment of the vin and the rules regulating the identification is a requirement of the manufacturer's licence to manufacture.
It is a commercial regulation.
I'm not saying enforcement hasn't gone beyond the law in action and in code in enforcing vehicle identification, to make the job easier for them.
They step on rights to make the job easier.
The reasoning is the public good and practical enforceability. I'm not disagreeing with the need, I'm disagreeing with the tactics.
As technology advances making enforcement's job easier, the burden of enforcing the law on our rights should diminish not increase.

There is no Licence to own a car because it is a legal right to own. It is even a legal right to manufacture one for your own use.
It is only Illegal to manufacture for public sale and therefore requires a licence.
You have the right to make and own your own car and as long as it meets dot standards drive it on the road just as legally as if it were from a licensed manufacturer.

Remember, the only thing they can lawfully regulate in a free country is the public domain.
The epa rules because air is public
The highway rules because highways are public.
Manufacturing for retail distribution because commerce is public.


Licence is official permission to engage in an illegal activity.

You don't need a licence to engage in a legal activity = a right.

Legal Jeopardy is the danger of punishment. It begins at either the arrest, the charge, or the arraignment and ends at the tentative discharge of the sentence.
I don't remember exactly when it starts but I think it your are not in Jeopardy until charged.

Legal Jeopardy for breaking the rules regulating the licensed activity is an offence and falls on the licence not the person and is punishable by fines aliened to the licence or by losing the licence.

Engaging in Illegal activity without a Licence is a crime and Legal Jeopardy falls on the body of the person and is punishable by fines and incarceration.

If the offence resulted in harm it can stand as evidence of negligence and put one in legal jeopardy of a separate criminal charge occurring relative to the offence.

For example, a cdl driver can't drive for more than 11 hours without a 10 hour break. If he does and gets caught it can only be a fine against his licence, not incarceration.
But, if he injures or kills someone in an accident, the accident is no longer a civil matter. The driver is "Dirty". The negligence allows for criminal charges to be applied to the cdl driver involved in the accident even if he was not at fault.
If the driver was negligent for some time prior to the accident without having an accident but took the appropriate time off duty before having an accident...then they say he "cleaned up" and there is no negligence that applies to the accident.

The whole process of arresting you for breaking the rules of your licence (or even of committing a crime)is to carry out due process that you appear in court to answer the charge against you, it is not to punish you. You are not punished until after charged, guilt is determined and a sentence has been issued.
The sentence must be explicit and have a beginning and an end date.
Once the sentence has been carried out in full the charge against you is by self evident due process discharged.
No further action of the court once sentence has been fulfilled is required to discharge the charge because the court determined the end at the beginning.
The sentence cannot go on in perpetuity which is why if one is to be incarcerated forever, the life sentence is discharged at the death of the incarcerated.
One the sentence has been discharged, the persons legal status is no longer infamous but is "Homo Ingenuus", a freeman, a free and lawful man.
A felon is one who is under conviction for an offence punishable by incarceration of 1 year or more.
You are only a felon while under a felony charge. Once the charge has been discharged, you are no longer a felon.
This is the Law, Statute recognizes it.
It's why gun regulations and employment applications ask if you "have been convicted of a felony" not if you ARE a felon.
The discrimination used by a variety of regulations applies "if you have been convicted of a felony" not if you are a felon because all felons have been convicted of a felony but once the sentence is carried out the charge against you is discharged you are no longer a felon.
This is why you must have restoration of your rights after being charged with a felony and serving your time before you may vote , hold public office, or possess firearms.
The rules regulating those activities make that determination.
It's not due any shadow of infamy upon the person who's charge has been discharged by completion of the sentence.

Now under federal Law and in the laws of some states, there is no restoration of rights except by pardon.
Lucky for me in my state where I was charged with a felony when I was 18, My rights were restored after the charge had been discharged.
I have a familiarity with the law I would not wish to have if I could go back.
I did 18 months in prison and 18 months on parole. When i was released from Parole, My rights were restored. I vote, I have lawfully travelled to Canada about 20 times. I don't currently own any firearms for financial reasons but I have legally owned them in the past after my incarceration and passed purchase requirements filling out the Govt. forms truthfully and completely stating that I did have the felony charge and that my rights were subsequently restored. Canada prohibits entry of felons unless pardoned. I have not been pardoned, the record of the conviction is public and not sealed. Canada has background checked me at the border every time and allowed me entry. I'm legally eligible to hold public office, serve jury duty, No problem.
I didn't say so, the government says so and the law says so.
What you hear on the street is just not exactly how things are but you have to stay on top of it all or populist confusion becomes regulation and then new laws that infringe on old protections are erected.

I was the runt in school, I grew up getting beat up.
No biggie...just kids... learn how to fight and deal with it

I had a contempt of the law that began when a bully in jr High said he was going to kill me, I told my folks, we told the administration, they said oh, figures of speech blah blah blah this is a good kid doesn't make trouble nothing to worry about...
Well, couple weeks later he stabbed me in the chest when I wasn't looking.
The shank hit a rib and didn't go into my heart. I was skin and bones so there wasn't much of a wound just a hole in the skin and a bruised rib.
That shook me up. I had never known anyone to actually want to kill me and try to carry it out. but it still didn't change me.
What changed me is the way the police colluded with the school administrators to cover up the incident at the request of the school to stop any possibility of lawsuit. My parents sought out a lawyer but even though it was fully and properly reported on our end...It never officially happened and the police refused to investigate or take a report.

I'm a little biased when it comes to holding officials up to the same standards we must live by. If they won't abide by or think they are above the law then they need to go do something else for a living and let someone honest make and enforce the law.
It took my getting in trouble to shake up my theology and show me I was striking out in the wrong direction... Good concience told me something had to be done but I was doing it all wrong... toward evil... in selfish indignation and revenge for indefinable wrongs rather than in goodness, education, public service, and defending a high standard.

I understand there is a difference between what the law is and what they make it to be. These things I've listed, They aren't theories they ARE the law and it shows how even those in authority do not follow the law but you can't sometimes hold it against them. they are trying to protect people and applying the law in real life isn't the same as the high ideal.

It doesn't diminish the validity of the law if enforcement does not practice the law. Sometimes they gotta do what they gotta do to protect the public even if it requires bending the rules. Are they protecting us or covering their own butts? That's where I draw the line.

If your not doing anything wrong or hurting anyone, it shouldn't be illegal.

 

goddang that was long post, sorry mates.
I cut a bunch out too
short side I say push for your rights, don't give up but don't actually do anything grey area until you have permission from the authorities. You can't make a stand when your hunched over with orange canvas in your crack.

 

Blah blah blah

 

see them big chewie cheeks in my pic
them jowls is packin. I got a big block motor mouth