How many hambers out there can metal finish sheet metal work? and how long have you been working with sheet metal? I'd love to do it but i need some more experience under my belt. Some pics of metal finished work would be cool
My friend is awesome and has the creds, but I'm not sure if he's still a HAMBer, or not. I'll ask him.
lots and lots of work,but very cool when cleared over.i took seminars with ron covell and gene winfield.great times.all i can say is read books and go to some of the seminars that are out there.
Currently, my fab skills are limited to being able to drill really nice holes. But I have taken two of Ron's metal fab classes, so I've seen how it can be done. With that basic knowledge, I will get there one day. I bought a welder this month, and am taking a welding class at night now. I also have a recent O/A torch set-up. I'm also lucky in that I worked for car mags for 10 years, and I've seen the way it is SUPPOSED to be done (and a whole lot more of "damn, how are you guys going to fix THAT?! Oh...body work in a can. Got it). Take one of Ron's classes, read books, practice a lot, and the two biggest tips are this: Be very comfortable when you work. It allows you to be fussy while you're doing it. And don't be affraid to throw something away and start over. You'll spend a lot more time chasing a bad part than starting over. Brad
"bodywork in a can" Lead, bondo- both take major time to master let alone metal finishing. If you are talking about no mud/lead whatsoever metal repairs, that's a pretty fucking elite group. I respect a guy that can make a car truly straight with "bodywork in a can" because most can't even master that.
Metal finishing to the point where there is no bondo is very very time consuming especially when your workin with old used sheet metal. Not to say that it cant be done but it is very difficult. I havent taken any covell classes but i do get to do it almost every day and i would have to say that experience is the most important thing not necessarily taking a bunch of classes although they do help. My advice is to buy the little red book out of eastwood on how to work with metal it is a great great book. Also watch some older guys or just guys with lots of experience they are the best tool you can get. And also a good set of tools and the know how on how to use them properly. Hope this helps you out.
Classes are great (I never could afford them) but then again they're not necessary either. Lessons learned the hard way are harder to forget. Get a hammer or make/modify one and start tinkering. Make mistakes - that'll learn you which questions to ask. Patience and determination are the main factors IMHO
No its not the same because in those classes you dont get the one on one time with them for hours and hours.
hey, When I got into body & fender work in the early 70's there were still a few guys left around from when metal finishing and lead- work was all there was. They were teachin' and I was learnin' They would say "it's a nice skill to know, but you'll never keep up with a putty flinger"- meaning you'll never make any money doin' it. Back then, only restoration shops were the only guys able to make a living charging for metalfinishing and lead work. Today, I don't know if any of the big money rod or kustom shops are doing any, I haven't seen any, if they are! Minimal metal shaping, maximum mud work. It's not a skill ya can learn from watchin a vidio, but some of the old body and fender tech. books cover it well. "The Key to Metal Bumping" by Frank T. Sargent, is being reprinted, I got mine in '73? Pratice makes the master. Don't become a tool whore, and buy every dolly and hammer ya see, right off, weight until you get some skill under your belt. The local SoCal swap meets still turn up a great selection of really good tools, I should know, I've been replacing mine , stolen in a burglery in'91. Good luck, Swankey devils C.C.
Metal finishing is an art to say the least. I admire the guys that can metal finish stainless trim. They don't get to cover it up with primer and paint. I have done some small stuff but don't consider even being close to calling myself a pro. Like Sawracer said, getting a panel straight with lead, or plastic filler and primer is hard enough. Most guys don't do it just because it is too time consuming. With a lot of practice you can get a panel pretty straight but when you get 75% of it done the last 25% is the most difficult. The larger the panel the more difficult it gets. I have seen guys work panels so much the metal gets extremely thin, and at that point it is ruined. I have done repairs to painted panels that were supposedly metal finished, sure there might have been no body filler but they made it up with primer. Just my 2 cents
I'm just a hard working amateur, but I have fun trying to come as close to metal finishing as I can. I learned a lot watching some videos I got from Ron Covell. Also a little book called something like "The Key to Metal Bumping" that's a reprint from an old book put out by a hammer and dolly company is really good. That book really helps you learn how to think about the repairs and plan what you're doing instead of just "smashing it out and smoothing it up". A book on chopping tops also has a lot of good info in it. I try to get things as close as I can to perfect with hammers and dollies and sometimes heat shrinking, but it usually still needs a little smudge of filler. I have a lot of respect for the guys that can do things like chop a top without needing any filler at all. That must take tons of talent and many many years of practice to get to that kind of skill level.
When I did my apprenticeship it took 10,000 hours to qualify to be come a journeyman, thats 8 hours a day for five years. The tradesmen would joke " now you have to work for your money". It was understood that another two years with full responsability for your jobs would turn you into a Tradesman. Any trade or art you want to master takes time and patience, suck up knowledge from wherever it comes, practice ,practice, practice. In relation to fine metal work buy the best tools you can, you won't need everything on the shelf. The best tool is that for a reason. 1. It's a pleasure to use. 2. It's made from a grade of steel suited to the job in hand, (very important). 3. That tool if used right will assist YOU to do the job without the aggrivation of leaving unwanted effects on the job. 4. That tool cost so much money, that at the end of the day you will clean it, oil it and stow it safely in your tool box, ready for the next time you need a friend. Remember your tools are extensions of your hands, and your hands are directly connected to your brain. If you have a slip-slod attitude, that will be reflected in your work. If you are a perfectionist you will always be dissapointed. Be the best you can be, often you are the only one who can see the faults. Show your attempts to people you admire, listen to what they say. Practice Practice Practice Get it Hot! Hit it Hard! No! No! not the panelwork
I've been at the bodywork/paint game now for over 30 years, and VERY recently, I've been thinking that I'm finally getting 'pretty good'. Most of my work is for customers, and like the others have said, you can't get paint for doing perfect metal work, for 99% of the people paying you. It is very skill intensive, and time consuming. A friend who is building a sectioned Merc (Sonny Daout from VA) has spent about 500 hours on ONE door! Can you imagine that! Practice metal finishing on parts untilyou are good. Try your skills out on stainless trim, and hubcaps, where you can't use filler. If you feel the need, try it on your own car. There wil be very few customers who will pay you for the hours you would put into thier project. The great metal finishers have pretty exclusive customers, willing to pay over $100,000 for a car build, but there aren't many customers like that around. Paul Bragg, Donn Lowe, Dave Crook, Steve Davis, are a few I know of. I haven't had the pleasure of seeing any in person out here on the East Coast though, but I believe Dave Simard is one of them, as well as Faye Butler. Maybe some day, if I live long enough, I might make it up in ther ranks. On the other hand, there is no shame in doing your metal work RIGHT, and using a skim coat of filler to finish it up. There aren't many out there who even get that far. (By "right" I mean getting it straight, with a minimun amount of filler, say less than 1/8" or so)
this is what I strive for at this point. also the "Key to Metal Bumping" book is worth every penny. I read that and worked out 2 dents on my car that I had no idea how to tackle previously.
you can take all the courses in the world, but if you cant "see" what you want to make and be able to work that out in your minds eye it will always be difficult to grasp.. best thing to do if you want it bad enough, is practice practice and when you think youve practised enough, practice some more .. even when you grasp it youll still not be happy and youll feel the need to get better still.. its that kind of thing, you need the patience of a saint and realise that not all repairs will only take 30 mins.. ( like most customers think) you really need to focus.. and some good tunes on the radio help pass the time. I am a self confessed tool whore, but no need to pay the earth for good ones.. I recovered my last set of hammers and dollies from a skip, ( i think you call them dumpsters) well over $500 of body hand tools just tipped there during a clearout.. youll know a nice tool as well, it will just feel right when you lift it .. weight, ballance, etc.. I just scored an English wheel too, an Edwards "RANALAH" 3ft throat in perfect condition from the local scrap recycling yard I visit regularly.. Just in that day for scrapping I purchased it and a set of rolls there and then for $200.. the best bargain I ever ever scored..So i will move up from the small Edwards wheel I already have ( 21/2 inch lower anvils) to full size lower anvils in the new machine .. more practice, more satisfaction.. its realy worth learning.. I also scored a hand held air planishing hammer with full set of lower anvils at a vintage car run for $300, I opened the box which was laying next to some other car parts and It was like a ray of light streaming from the box when I saw what it was inside.. ..Ive been practising and progressing for over 20 years as a keen amature, Im a qualified mechanic, but gave that up to be a cop which Ive done for 21 years. The metal shaping keeps me sane and I truly look forward to mashing out some shapes when I get in the garage. I need to practice more and hope to turn this into a small buisness when I retire in 8 years time .. By then I might actually be quite good? attached a pic of some stuff I done to a buddies 35 cabriolet,
When I do bodywork, I prepare the peices to be welded very carefully. I ensure that all the gaps between peices being joined are uniform and consistent. I use a controlled heat when welding, and I am very carefull when grinding the weld bead, so as not to build up too much heat. Then when i am finished, I carefully hammer and dolly any hi and low spots, to get a smooth surface. Then I stand back and eyeball it very carefully, looking for any minute distortion. Then I say "Fuck it" and cover the entire area with half an inch of Bondo!!!
well. "The Key to Metal Bumping" by Frank T. Sargent, is being reprinted, I got mine in '73? Got to go look in the old bookcase . Got that one in the late 60's in trade school. Like a couple of the other guys I was fortunate enough to work along side the old timers that had the skills to metal finish and the great ones were far and few in between. Today , as others have said ,there are a small number of craftsmen that possess these skills, and we are fortunate that these people are keeping it alive by spreading the word through thier books. videos and classes. As far as metal straightening goes. Check out the used car lots.The guys doing paintless dent repair are using the same metal repair techniques . You can still get the pic rods and all the other necessary tools . Every bodyman today should be proficient at this. Unfortunately most have adopted a fill and sand attitude. The trade itself is losing its metal repairing ability due to plastics, hss and uhss metals. Pick and filing a panel is a great workout . Gets you and the panel in shape. This success of using this repair process becomes more difficult as the repair area grows in size. But as far as the best advise one of the old timers gave me about the tools needed for doing metal finishing was this. "The most important tool you will need is a good milkcrate. Do you know how to use it?" he asked? He let me stand there and think for a while and said " You sit on it and put together the plan of how your going to go about the repair . You will need to think about the problems you may iencounter during the task and how you will resolve them before they become issues. " I have to say this was the most important lesson in my metal finishing training because it taught me to make sure I had a solid plan together before I started and accelerated the learning process.
being the tool whore I mentioned earlier I purchased one of those stainless steel shrinking discs, Ive tried iot a few times but must be doing something wrong .. I crap myself that the disc will break fly off the grinder and cut me in half.. Ok having lost the instructions didnt help either.. so I guess I will just have to use my imagination... any one have one of these discs can furnish some info?
I don't know if you got the disc from me, but you are welcome to my instruction sheet. I have abused a shrinking disc by using one as a grinder to remove all the ridges on a piece of rebar and then sharpened the end to a point. No failure. Just keep an eye on the disc for cracks. I've never had any, but after years of hard use, you should expect some to form eventually as you wear the tool out (haven't done that yet). I also have a DVD showing the disc in use if you are interested: http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=9980138836765 I think most of the instructions for the shrinking disc are in my welding and metal-finishing article here: http://metalshapers.org/101/jkelly/index.html Metal -finishing is pretty easy once you get a few basic techniques down.. bump, smooth, stretch, shrink, repeat any steps necessary as many time as it takes. The old pick and file method works to raise low spots, but there are better ways. The traditional method is to stretch with a hammer and dolly, but it is easier learning to substitute a ball peen hammer for the pick, or hammer and dolly stretching. It raises small lumps you can see, flatten those down with a hammer and dolly, use the shrinking disc, and see where you stand. Raise more low spots, smooth and shrink. It just takes a little effort, and a lack of fear. The metal is a lot tougher and more forgiving than most people seem to think. If you try to overwork a piece of scrap metal with the hammer and dolly, and the shrinking disc, you will be surprised at how many times you can repeat these simple steps without hurting anything. John www.ghiaspecialties.com
Just like on the HAMB, you can learn a LOT on www.metalmeet.com by first lurking, then asking questions. The site is loaded with master metal shapers that have a willingness to help ANYONE as long as they are trying. -Chad
My first job out of HS was with a local truck dealer down the block, they hauled in junkers and with "some kiss and a promise work" got them ready to resell..thye tried to double their money on every unit. The pay was minimum wage...$1.60 per hour...the boss's kid was the Bodyman and painter and the repair method used was braze in a piece of sheetmetal into a rust hole and grind it, then beat it below the surface and cover it with plastic. He ended up going to Ferris State College and got a 2 year degree in Autobody and Paint. This was in 1972. I did the shit work, sanding out panels by hand and doing some priming and even painting a few dump truck bodies....and watched what the boss's kid did....and learned enough to repair my first car, a 64 Falcon. BTW, This was before the era of the wire feed MIG welder...everything was OA.... At that time I was reading up everything that there was on bodywork at the library. Including hammer welding with O/A (in Rod and Custom) and brought that question out, fusion welding vs. brazing...the expert's answer?..."nah, too easy to burn thru with a torch, brazing is a lot better"... Typical of the "get it in and get it out" used car dealerships back then...rust was a major problem in Michigan back then..three years and you ahd rustout........ DuPont Centari was the high teck paint back then....and Synol Enamel was the day to day product in use...the cheapest paint...Martin Senor...Acrylic Lacquer was used on GM cars.... I never got beyond using Centari enamel, with the catalyst...I used Acrylic lacquer once, DuPont Imron once, because I got a good deal on it....I still use Centari...yet to use the base/clear paints... But I did learn how to hammerweld out of the R & C article. And learned to do lead at the local Vocational center in a night class. The instructor had a Journeyman's Card that he earned in Canada....Leroy Haskins....he said he could do lead work on a rustout repair cheaper than using plastic. As far as metal finishing goes, I can do it, most of the time with filler-free results. It takes patience...and most recently I've been restoring gas tanks for British motorcycles....Cut them apart and get inside to work out the dents. Weld the tanks back together. My advice, Read everything that you can. The older books on body work are still on the shelves of your local library. Take a trip downtown and find one and start reading it....you'd be surprised at what you'll learn. Start practicing on a junk fender or door and try to put to practice the methods outlined to remove those dents. Your tools can be simple..I stopped over at a friend's shop last week and removed a dent from a side cover for a damaged Triumph using nothing more than a small hammer, a flat bastard file, and a Eastwood Bullseye pick. This one was modified with a special insert made from a shoulder bolt, my buddy Mikle who loaned it to me replaced the original more pointed insert so as to contact a wider spot. I'd pick up the low spots and then check my progress with a pass of the file..Just a swipe, you don't want to remove metal..just check your work....it took a few hours of sitting there and working from side to side, but now with a pass from a 80 grit DA pad, it'll be ready for primer and paint... I started out with one good hammer, a pick hammer..from Sears..they sold a good line of body tools..and a universal dolly. I used them both for hammerwelding. In time, I acquired more tools. I was serving my tool and diemaking apprenticeship and the master I served under sold me his father's tools. he was a repairman at Kelvinator....the panels used in the refrigerators and stoves were often in need of repairs, and he saved the damaged panels. A lot of the dollies were custom made for the jobs he did...so I got pieces of steel and custom made dollies for the jobs I did at...I used a milling machine to rough them into shape and then finished them with a grinder and polished them to a nice finish. I still use lead when necessary, and sometimes you have to use some plastic. I bought a Video from Ron Covel years ago where he builds a body for a Morgan cyclecar. I met Ron at the NSRA Nationals in Louisville years ago. I read Professor Hammer in Street Rodder. I always learn something new. Be patient, take your time, and you'll be able to save a lot of those old car parts. Go to www.metalmeet.com/forum and see what the guys there are working on. you'll learn something there I guarantee.
haha thats how i do it!!!! haha....but in all seriousness...this is a great topic...i too practice practice practice....but have still yet to even come close to mastering it...but ive only been doing it for about 2 years...and i had no videos ,no classes...and no welding experience....just mags and the occasional book....but with experience ...you learn every day...and thats how im doing it...and i just read up on anything to do with metal working (sheetmetal to frame work) i love metal fab so much ...i feel like its what i was meant to do .....but like i said....i still got a lonnnnnnggggggg way to go.....and i love looking at your guyes metal working pics so KEEP EM COMING!!!!!! heres some of mine the primer on it is cuz it was sitting out side for a while....just got it in the shop recently......
John, I bought it last year off ebay as far as i recall and Im pretty sure the tech was emailed whuich I saved, but cant remember where to, spent most of today looking for it ... Im al;so prety sure the chap that I bought it off eitrher makes them of has them made. He is also on the metal meet forum If thts your pofile them maybee it was you I bought it from.. I have used it but dont have the confidence with it it yet .. and wasnt sure If i should be making sparks fly with it or not ??? The fear of it breaking is one of those irrational ones you get when your not quite sure what your dealing with.. Eddie I love progress pics too.. Im a firm believer there aint a sure way to this stuff.. aand most fellas reach the same goal using using there own methods..that they practise...
Patience, is probably your most important tool. Of course practice is pretty important as well. I would suggest you get good with hammering out dents and stuff on an old fender. Or grab an old garnish molding and chop it, weld it, then metal finsih it. Start off with small stuff then work your way up to the big stuff, like a door skin, roof panel. I sorta learned by chopping stainless moldings for chopped cars, metal finishing those and then having to polish them out to a mirror finish. THERES NO HIDING ON THAT STUFF. So if you get good at that, sheetmetal will indefinitly be easier for you. This top was split four ways as it was brought down 4", then a donor roof skin was spliced in. It's hard to tell where the joints are, but after several hours and sweat they disapear. Another thing too, don't file it to tin foil!
I'm just waiting for someone to chime in and suggest that the first thing you need for metalfinishing is an English wheel --and one that is purchased from Harbor Freight. While you are there get you a Hammer & Dolly set too!! Really though, we metalfinish in our shop as a routine. But I also offer lifetime guarantees on paintwork --and on a collector car, that can be a long time! If you go to our restoration pages you will will see many pictures of it. The one thing that I hope does not get overlooked is the hands-on time spent learning the craft. 'FE26' is spot-on IMO about what is required. No one seemingly wants to take the time to be an Apprentice anymore. Tradesmen and Journeyman levels of craftsmanship are not learned at a weekend school or from a video! I started out with a few jokes at the top of my post but if you notice something else, --everyone wants to be able to replicate the work that Randy Ferguson, Ron Covel, Fay, Wray, and others do yet when I read the recent post about English Wheels it seems people want to skimp & buy with the cheapest thing that they can get by with, ...and complain when someone tells them that the tool is junk. That mindset don't work in my book. Like someone said, being cheap used mean a bad thing. I think it still does.
I don't sell on ebay. There is no problem with a few sparks... just keep practicing, you will get it. John www.ghiaspecialties.com
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