Model A cross members and Boxed frames.... Is this to easy?

Somewhere in thread, A wise old Hamer wrote " make a plan and stick with it, dont change your mind constantly or you'll waste money."

So I'm putting my TCI motor mounts on ebay, I've put a paypal claim in for the energy suspention parts I never got and went back to plan 1.

It may not be as clean as some of the ideas you guys suggested but it has added more meat to the frame and allowed for quick pinion angle setting. The original cross member components I found were for a 48-54 chev truck. They had to be cut down for size but that was the only hang up.

Basicly, I lined everything up, tacked the mounts in place, rechecked and then found my angle for the driveshaft. Once there, I sewed up the motor mount. The Vega box is next, then we're into the channeling.

... It's pissy rainy here today so maybe I'll stay inside and throw the body on it to have a look just for fun.

 

Why didn't you just go buy the mounts at the local Lordco store,they stock them in Vancouver?

 

Lono---Don't want to break your heart, but there is no way in Hell that a Vega box is going to work with that crossmember/motormount setup. The box and the steering shaft are going to occupy the same space as the tubular crossmember.

 

Not the 3-1134's.... I tried that. They dont have them in Vancouver and their back ordered approx 6 weeks.

 

Hey Brian,
Thank you for commenting. I've read many of your contibutions to HAMB. When you write something... I stop and read and reread.

I measured and remeasured... mocked up and scratched my head. It all seemed tight ( not too tight, just snug) but possible.

I've got my drag link coming on wednesday, then I can get down to the brass tax. Gawd I hope you're wrong. I'll let you know soon.

 

Lono---I have built a number of cars with small block chev engines and Vega cross steering. I always build my own mounts from 3/16" plate, and I have found through bitter experience that the stiffner web that welds to the frame (or your crossmember tube) have to be trimmed SEVERELY to clear the input shaft and coupler or universal joint on the steering box. I have just done up 3 solid models to illustrate the difference in that stiffner web on the drivers side motor mount as opposed to the passenger side mount. And that damn box can't be moved!!! the top bolt has to clear the top of the frame as shown in the pictures in my earlier post, and the distance from the front crossmember back to the steering box is dictated by the length of the Pitman arm and good steering geometry (read that as having the drag link parallel to the tie rod when viewed from above, with both wheels facing straight).

 

got your message on this last night Brian and thank you for taking the time to do the cad drawings.

I'm not second guessing you, I fear your right. Just two " just in case" questions...

Can a guy shorten the pitman ( to move the box forward on the frame) or would it end up too short (or)
option 2: can the pitman be heat stretched and a "Z" put in it to accomodate for the box being dropped?

..just a couple last ditch attempts before I rip the thing out.

 

Lono---Jeez, I wish I could tell you something good, but no luck. If you shorten the Pitman arm, your steering box will run out of travel from center to fully turned position in either direction, but your wheels will only turn partway. Basically, the length of the Pitman arm should closely match the length from the center of the kingpin to the center of the 'eye" on the steering arm where the drag link attaches. If you put a Z in the Pitman arm to lower the steering box, it will drop the bottom of the steering box down below the framerail and create a big road clearance hazard---Remember that when your front wheels roll over a speed bump, the axle, tie rod, and drag link will lift up with the tires, so everything clears the speedbump. As soon as your tires have rolled over the speed bump, the front of your car will drop back down--just in time to tear the steering box off if it is hanging below the frame far enough to clear your tubular crossmember. The set-up that you have installed has been used for many years, with cars that do NOT use a Vega cross steer set-up, but instead use an F100 pickup or early mustang steering box with the drag link running to the drivers side front spindle.

 

The Vega box has 3 mounting bosses, one at the top, and two at the bottom. It is normally mounted to a triangular plate with three 3/4" diameter "stand-offs" about 3/8" long, which face in towards the center of the car. -These are necessary because the cast body of a Vega box actually sticks out farther than the flat mounting surface of the three 'bosses". In a "normal" Vega box installation, the top boss is just about centered on the top of the framerail (see pictures in my earlier post). The bottom 2 bosses are actually below the framerail, so that bolts coming thru the 2 bottom bosses will clear the underside of a model A framerail by about 1/2", just enough to get a nut on the bolts which come thru. (the top boss must be tapped, as there is no way to get a nut on the top bolt if it did come thru the mounting plate). In the attached picture, you can see how much of the triangular steering box mounting plate hangs below the frame on one of my "typical" Vega steering box applications. Believe me, you don't want it hanging down below the framerail more than that!!!

 

okay... so maybe its time to ebay the vega box in exchange for a f100 box. Crapolla!
Do you know if I can still use my chev steering columb if I go f1oo box?
I know I'll have some interesting modifying to do to accomodate the boxed frame but hey... it might be better than ripping the whole thing out.

 

You can use your chev column with any steering box. Borgeson sells universal joints that will connect any box to any column.

 

Well Sir Brian,
cut cut...grind grind...weld weld. Guess what I'm doing on the weekend. Those long lost motor mounts I ordered from energy systems just arrived today... 8 weeks after I ordered them. Law of averages or what?

Talk about a trial by fire. This is my first A and wont be my last... a stumble along the way on life path of enrichment.

Thanks again for your input, your comments and guidance has helped a lot of rodders here on h.a.m.b. and your threads should be manditory reading for all us newbie/FNG's.

 

Lono---thats what rod building is all about---finding out what does work and what does not. Its too bad that you went off course like that on your first build, but you'll know next time. If I was you I would NOT reinstall the motor untill AFTER you have the steering box mounted and steering lock to lock. You can 'play" a bit with the positioning of the engine---even mount it a bit off center for clrarance, and it will still work fine, but that damn steering box can only really go in one place. I strongly advise that you also have the drivers side manifold in place before you add those new mounts.---Brian

 

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">After you listen to these guys and box the frame try these for motor mounts. I just built a 3 side perch with a flat top, and the open side towards the motor to access the bolt. I bought a set of Howe style motor mounts from Howe Racing Ent. Speedway sells them too a little bit cheaper. They give you some lateral leaway because the bolt hole is slotted.
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Lucky77---those mounts will work fine if a person doesn't plan on running full fenders. For any car running full fenders, or that may at some future point be equipped with front fenders, the mounts can not be setting on top of the frame rails.---and even with those mounts, I would want to have the Vega box mounted in place first.---Brian

 

Hey Lono, Duke in Vernon. I am building an A coupe as well. I am using a hurst style mount that mounts to the front of the motor so that I could avoid the Vega box. I have a cardboard template for the mount that you are welcome to trace. The mount uses the energy suspension biscuts that you bought. Send me a PM, I am working in the shop the next coupe of nights trying to get the motor in its final spot.

 

Duke---Everyrhing I have researched about the Hurst front style motor mounts says that they are a real Bastard for breaking aluminum transmission housings in the bellhousing area. the small block chev engine is designed to have either side mounts on the engine and a mount under the tailstock of the transmission OR front mounts as well as auxiliary frame mounts at the back of the engine in the bell housing area. If you mix it up and support the front of the engine on a Hurst style mount, and the rear of the tranny tailstock, the stresses will break the tranny housing under even moderate acceleration.

 

I have planned to put in mid mounts to deal with the stress factor as well as deal with the problem of the engine "walking" when it is only mounted with the hurst style mounts. I was worried about the stress on the turbo 350. My mount is also designed so that the motor sits a little higher than the orginal hurst and it clears the larger balancer on my 1968 327.

 

I have attached a picture of a Hurst style front mount that I built and installed in a friends 31 Chev car---I also built and installed secondary mounts that bolted to the rear of the engine via the bolts which hold the tranny to the back of the motor.---They used the same flathead Ford style mounts to tie in to brackets which I welded to the frame. In the cad model, the dark blue represents the engine.---I have also thrown in a picture of an early Mustang steering box mounted to a Model A---a very clean installation, and no motor mount interferance.---drag link goes to drivers side spindle.---Brian

 

I was over to Dukes tonight. I gotta say, nice work there. I'm not 1/4 of the way on this project and he's got me thinking about the next one.

I've not ready to rule out what I've done so far. I've taken into account all Brians wisdom and I'm looking at what's there. Rather than saying, cant do it and throwing it all away, I'm going to apply the exact location of the Box + my present system and have a final kick at the can before I call it a day.

You're 100&#37; right about the location of that Box. It's got one spot only. I'll work on it over the weekend and send a picture when its done. I can see it in my mind ( built it in TRUESPACE) and looked at it on the frame, I just need the time to put it together.

 

Most people don't realize it, but the position of damn near everything on a hotrod is predicated by the positioning of the rad/grillshell and the rear body wheelwells.

 

well WOW....
i have read so much info that i got a brain freeze!
I have to go back and read it all again. But this is a HUGE help on my build.
Wouldnt a suicide front axle set up help with the steering box location?

I was thinking about leaving the steering box till later....It just got bumped on my list.
Good work!

 

taking a break for a little day dreaming today.
here's pic of LoLoNo as he sits today...
and... a "photochop" of the 6 in channel/5 inch chop coming this fall.

 

Jesus--what a concept---taking a break!!! I've worked 20 hours this weekend doing up a proposal for a pallet loading line for Toyota---my eyes are just about fried. ---okay, enough bitching---your coupe is going to look great!!!---Brian

 

If you are more than about 5' I'd reconsider the chop/channel amounts.
I'm 6' and a 3 1/2" chop and 4" channel just barely gives me some headroom with a 2" seat right on the floor.

 

I got my wheels painted and a great set of pipes from Ted at www.tedsfabrication.com . Less than 1/2 the price of Sandersons and look kick ass.
They're exactly what I wanted to complement my rust and dust.

The body wont get much cosmetic attention, other than a rub down with a BBQ pad to take off the top granuals of rust.

The wheels are too pretty right now and the plans there are to remove all but traces of paint, some rusty caps and the rings will get a dose of steel wool and muratic acid.

I pulled the motor yesterday gettng ready to work on the Vega box issue and will post something on that soon.

This weekend I'm heading down to an invite only "Hot Rod WhoHaw" hosted by Rockin' Vince Taylor on Salt Spring Island, B.C.. will grab a few pix along the way.

 

I second that on reconsidering the chop/channel amount. Your head may clear the roof with a thinly padded seat, but seeing past the visor will be a bitch unless you are on the shorter side. And seeing traffic lights will take some contortion.

Yeah, I know a lot of cars have been done that way and more, but to me it really takes a lot of the comfort factor out of the car unnecessarily.

 

I hear ya, I'm listening... I'm 6 ft - mostly legs.
Basicly I'm going to tack brace the car up, remove the floor and jack it into position where everything can be tested before anything is welded in. I want the look... the room... and am willing to be flexible to find a happy medium.

 

vega box issue....

I took this idea from a car thats on the road now so I'm not taking credit here. It addresses the vega box location well and also hides most of the universal. I didn't have my camera so I couldnt get a picture so here's a mock up to give you an idea.

ps.... the car was built in 1980... its still on the road and running a 400hp CSB. Those of you in Chilliwack, B.C. will know the car owned by Mike ( I can't find him here on H.A.M.B.).

 

Good idea. I think that mock up will be real important in this area. Seen too many cars with goofy pedal-seat-steering layouts just because the builder wanted "the look". Form follows function and the look will derive from that.

Maybe you can replicate the dimensions now by taping up the top 5" of the windscreen (the chop) and raising the seating area 11" (chop + channel) to check visability and to make sure your head clears.