Featured History Modifying a Survivor: Are They Really Off Limits?

Curt Six submitted a new blog post:

Modifying a Survivor: Are They Really Off Limits?

Continue reading the Original Blog Post

 

Would you take white out to the Cons***ution?


What seems unhistoric or insignificant to some maybe of deep historical importance to someone else!

Ball and stick activities mean nothing to me but that doesn’t mean if I found an important piece of baseball memorabilia I would use it as s**** paper.

This isn’t 1960 and an old flathead powered hot rod, stock car or dragster isn’t just an obsolete car, it’s history!

If someone want to build there own hot rod or custom go out and find a car an build your own!

 

The cons***ution? Politics? Yes, for sure after 250 years there have been a few minor changes. Need white out, way past due

 

That wasn’t a Political statement, I was referring to the history of the do***ent itself!

 

Mario Andretti’s Daytona 500 winning car was re skinned and became Darrell Walltrip’s rookie car.

However at that point it was nothing more than an obsolete racecar!

 

IMHO originals are already owned by their last caretakers. Museums regularly sell off their holdings. Not much reason to keep maintaining originality for it's own sake. Might as well make your own vision than be confined to what the last guy did.

 

Here’s the deal Automobiles are designed and built for one purpose Transportation that’s it, that’s the sole purpose.
Once a person purchases a car it’s theirs to do whatever they want to with it. Wether it’s a $1500 beater or a 2.5 million concourse correct blah, blah , blah. Doesn’t matter. As a Hot Rodder/Custom type person I say get out the torch, find an engine that will tax the car’s structure, get it driving and go flog the hell out of it.
That being said there are many Survivors that if I owned I’d leave alone. However most I would not. A car uncle Joe built in the 50s that’s been in the barn since 65 isn’t a national treasure. Do whatever you want with said car.
One thing I don’t want to see in this hobby is a set of rules we have to follow.
Dan

 

Unless somebody besides me is bankrolling the project, no one else gets a say in the decision making. I don’t do things for approval and pats on the back, I do what I feel like because I can.

 

Curt, I think the Buick example you showed in the blog post is an interesting one, you could almost call it a continuation or refinement of the original.

The photos at first glance certainly show it as the same car which I think is key, it seems as though it needed repairs after the p***age of time anyways so why not refine those modifications and details while the work is happening. It has certainly not ruined the car!!

I am a firm believer in vehicles being used so if that means some parts have to be repaired or altered then so be it, its the current owners right to do with it what they want.

We live in a world where everything is ultra do***ented so even if a future owner wants to return it to a previous guise then they have the references to do that.

Bottom line is these are just old collections of formed metal, 99.9999999% of the worlds population couldn't give a damn about our ultra niche hobby. So if it makes YOU happy to modify YOUR car then do it.

 

Robert I understand your p***ion for the history of cars especially racecars. However comparing any car to the Cons***ution is apples and oranges. Modifying an automobile with historic significance really doesn’t affect anybody’s well being, it might upset a few people but that’s it. Racecars especially racecars go through many changes in the course of their life, cl*** and rule changes, sponsor changes etc. nobody says that a particular racecar has to stay the way it was on day one.
Dan

 

Look at all the survivors that were turned into street rods, which can hardly be given away since that part of the hobby has fallen by the wayside, peach paint, digital dashes, and tweed interiors and all.

I’m not averse to simple changes, , but door poppers and led lights on a Deuce coupe?.. Give me a break.

My own 36 coupe project had someone’s attempt at installing rectangular headlights in the front fenders. Talk about abortions in the name of improvements.!

 

Trends will come and go, yes 80's/90's had some ideas that don't really fit with our tastes, BUT if not for that continued interest in those vehicles they likely would have gone to the crusher and now have lived multiple lives over as kitchen appliances or fencing etc.

I for one would rather have 100,000 36 coupes with square headlamps than 100 that are factory stock.

 

There are absolutely "untouchable" examples that are part of preserving history. But for the most part - I don't believe survivors are off limits. What bugs me is when the soul is removed in favor of fads/updates... and even over-restoring.

Still, I believe it's the owners right to make that choice.

There are plenty of examples of cars that were parked and sat because of undrivability way back when and they are now preserved but not enjoyed because of fear of making the repairs for drivability.

People are scared to what, offend history, be judged, or some other imagined factor - which is counter to ideology that lead to hot rodding these cars in the first place.

Life is short - I'm reminded of this daily. If it makes someone happy to add to the history of a survivor - go for it.

 

It's funny that Barry removed the louvered hood that was original on the Buick and then put louvers on his Bettancourt inspired Mercury. Seems b*** ackwards to me.

I don't think major reworks, as in modifications, should be done to significant historical cars but I am with Mark in the it's dumb camp to leave a car in a rusty ratty state to "preserve history". It's not what the original builder/owner intended the car to be and I see it as a kind of slap in the face to all the work the original builder and owner put into the car to make it beautiful in the first place to leave it in a state of disrepair.

 

Wither we like it or not, If someone bought a historically significate custom or hot rod and decided to start cutting it up, it's his car and he can do what he wants, I can attest I would hate to see it happen but the owner can make that decision. HRP

 

If it’s your car now do with it want you want.

I used to own a TVR that was one of 6, it’d been raced and at least 3 different colours, so what each owner put their mark on it.

My Mercury whilst not significant in my mind is original, (I think the survivor tag is ********, made up by collectors who want to make money rather than use a car).

Im a racer at heart but I have a weird sentimentality about my Merc. Whilst looking at its history I looked into its original owner and found a picture of his and his wife’s grave and their son’s memorial who died in WW2. And although there’s a part of me that wants to shove a 427 in there I feel I owe it to the Frailey’s to look after it. Whenever I go past an American Cemetery, and there are a lot this side of the pond, I tip my hat to Sgt Frailey and his folk’s who spent so many years living without their son.

But if the next owner might be completely indifferent to that and want to do something to it thats their choice.

Not technically a HAMB friendly pic as there’s no car but perhaps I can get a p*** for this one.

 

I land in the same place as Moriarity. Survivors a cool to an extent. But I would MUCH rather see a traditionally restored car to a high level. Took this approach with my restoration of the **** Flynn 37 Coupe.

 

My nomination for quote of the day.
Russ

 

There are two distinct reasons to want to preserve something: it could be of particular merit, in whatever terms, or it could be a rare surviving example of a type — or, of course, both. The approach would differ, depending on which of the two reasons predominates.

It's in the latter case that "originality" really plays a role. All old cars are fundamentally scarce (in the sense that they are a finite resource) and their scarcity is artificial in numerous significant ways, many of which are ultimately political. But the closer a car gets to being actually unique, the less important originality gets, and the more it makes sense to look at its history as a whole.

I've got a copy of Johnnie Green's 1969 book, Bentley, Fifty Years of the Marque on my shelf. It is filled with photographs of cars fitted with unique coachbuilt bodies from new. I wonder how much of that coachwork has been junked in the past half-century to create yet more Le Mans replicas. That's a tricky one. Much of the lost coachwork was certainly stodgy and pedestrian, but I suspect not all. But is the world better off for another dozen UR6571s? Do we really need spare copies? I know what I said about a car's history, but this makes not only for a boring life story, but for the same boring life story copied over and over.

I'm not averse to modern rebodying, if it's done with a modi*** of historical rigour. Rebodied-in-1936 stories abound in early high-end cars. The famous Jonkheere "round-door" 1925 Rolls-Royce P1 is one such: the occasion of endless Facebook comments about Rolls-Royce's stylishness in 1925, requiring endless corrections as to how the coachbuilding profession worked at the time. Not only was it rebodied in 1934-5 but it was finished in white, gold, and black at various stages of its existence. So if rebodied-in-1936 stories are part of the history, then why not rebodied-in-2026?

Thus we certainly gained much more than we lost with this Lincoln KB, rebodied in the '90s. But then: it is not generally appreciated that the iconic Dubonnet/Hispano-Suiza Xenia represents not one but two rebodying incidents. The Xenia body, by Saoutchik, dates from 1938 and replaced a sports saloon by Vanvooren, which has been lost, which is suspected to have replaced something else. I should very much like for a replica of the Vanvooren version to be built, as on balance I prefer it.

What does this have to do with '41 Buick customs? What I'd come away with is, how does what you intend to do fit into the car's history as a whole?

 

I've been living this "conundrum" for the last few years. I ended up, through pure luck, being in the right place at the right time, and knowing the right people, purchasing a quite famous 1949 Mercury custom in this part of the country. EVERYONE here knows the car. It had been owned by the same guy since 1952, who ended up p***ing away....cutting a long story short: After 7 years of storing it, at a shop, the family had decided to sell it. Through that luck, I ended up getting connected with the people storing it, looking at it, and that guy got a hold of the owner's kids for me, who are in their 60s.

Bill was the former owner. Everywhere I take the car, some old guy will come up and say "That's Bill's car! We've been wondering where it went." and then telling me a story about it, Bill, and all kinds of things about the car, who did what, at what time, etc....Bill had modified and customized the car all through the years, dropped the 322 Nailhead in it in 1953, nosed, decked, shaved the door handles, rounded the hood corners, frenched the headlights, etc. all at that time. He kept modifying and customizing it in keeping with the "trends" of the time (it had Catalina tailights on it at one point cut into the trunk in the '70s, for instance). But when I got it in 2024, he had returned it to what was more or less "traditional", but had a few things out of style like an Audiovox tape deck, Edelbrock Elite air cleaner, blah blah blah....

Well, I promised his son and daughter I'd take care of the car and have it forever, and wouldn't ever change it too much, just do things to make a bit more "mine". So I took all the period finned bits off the engine and hand sanded and polished them instead of buying new stuff. Repainted the engine in a color that best matches the candy apple paint that was laid down 30 years ago. Took the stock intake off and found a Weiand dual quad intake on but kept the stock WCFB and found a matching carb to keep it period. Changed the hubcaps/beauty rings and thin whites to Lancers and 2 3/4" white walls. Got rid of that tape deck, shifter, and some other things here and there, with lots of detailing done along the way.

All the while I've been doing this, I've kept in touch with his kids, sending them updates, asking if they think Bill would approve of what I'm doing. And everything I've done, they've said their Dad would have loved it, and that I'm the right owner/caretaker/custodian/whatever you want to call it for the car and they're happy I have it. And they made me promise I'd drive the **** out of it, because that's what Bill did, so I've got 12,000 miles on it in two years, which is no small feat because I have 5 other cars and trucks that I also drive.

So, to me, on a car like this that might not mean much to the world, but does have true history even if it's only in one small part of the country, we should still keep pesonalizing them to our tastes when we own them, but try our best not to lose the original character that the guy/gal who built it put in. I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't something I'd wanted in the first place, and I waited for the right '49-'51 to come along, which ended up just falling into my lap after looking at probably 30 other cars that just weren't quite "it".....just one man's opinion and experience.....oh, and the interior will be white tuck and roll instead of the gray/red cloth that it currently is by end of next year. I think Bill would approve.

 

This topic has been debated extensively in a prior thread, from a blog post made by Joey Ukrop. I'll link it here. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/?p=33903

I felt the same way then as I do now.

Should certain historically significant rods and customs be preserved? Absolutely. But they're few and far between and the exception rather than the rule. Everything else is free game as far as I'm concerned. It is ironic that we're on a forum for hot rods and custom cars, debating what hot rods and custom cars shouldn't be hot rodded or customized. Say that last sentence out loud to yourself a couple times and let it sink in.

Again, some historically significant cars should be preserved, or even restored back to their original glory if at all possible. And certain cars with serious pedigree like Barris, Winfield, Hines, the Alexander Bros. should be painstakingly brought back to their original show glory. But let's not get carried away and say that every "old custom" or "barn find hot rod" needs to be preserved. This is getting like the AACA for ****ty unfinished projects that have laid around for decades.

I'm happy to respect history, but I would also be just as happy making my own. I consider ownership of a vehicle to be like writing a chapter in the book of its history. If you write a good enough chapter, then the book becomes synonymous with your name. The Hirohita Mercury, the Dave Jenkins 57 Chevy... and so on. But it is your right as the owner to write that chapter however you feel, whether you let it sit outside for decades, or turn it into a Riddler winner, or anything in between.

Ironically, with the prior thread from Joey Ukrop, the subject matter of the thread was a "survivor" custom 60 Edsel. Well, the car was a hacked to death pile of garbage, the center link was butchered and the car couldn't really turn because the oil pan from the Hemi interfered with the steering so badly. The car has changed hands like a French *****, popping up on my FB Marketplace feed basically once every 6 months, likely because it's inexpensive price was alluring to people, only for them to realize the car needs tremendous amounts of work just to function and it's a financial money pit, and they sell it off again. Wash, rinse, repeat. If that's the "survivor" car people want preserve, I'll p*** thanks.

 

Whether it be a survivor car or engine or whatever if modifications are needed I say go for it! 1941 and who knows what the original carburetor was. An Amazon te***seh 5hp fit and instead of not being able to run at all it sets and runs all day. Is it correct NO does it work now? YES

I can slap a period correct Mikuni shoko on it at the price tag of $300 but for that and to make it period correct not factory correct isn’t even worth it for show.

Not to mention the $300 Mikuni shoko is not going to work like the new $5 carburetor and after spending $300 for the carburetor it would still need the broken bolts extracted a new needle and seat made as it’s stated missing in the eBay listing. And lastly the casting on the carb is busted also stated in the listing. The non broken one is $500 still missing parts. I think having the knowledge and ability to modify something rare to at least work is a better skill then spending obscene amounts of money to bolt on the original less reliable parts anyway.

 

I understand the dilemma . This belonged to family friends. Parked in 1961 . Flathead with Edmunds heads and intake , Columbia 2 speed .It’s mine now not historic by any means. I’m making it mine . I plan on driving and enjoying it . Bill had a 1963 Ford with 406 . He had talked about an engine swap . So I don’t feel bad about putting a 302 in it .

 

If its my money, my car and my time I'm sorry but I'm out to build my dream not someone else's.

I have no problem with saving good historical survivors but if its a basket case or been modified to the point of non-recognition then I see it as fair game or as was posted here awhile back. the custom model A with model T fenders and the double headlights that had been redone and painted gold, posted here. I'd leave it alone and drive the wheels off of it. It has a history and do***ented that could easily be followed and proven. It could be put back to its former self later on but, too me, too nice of a car just to tear apart and start over as it sits now.

Some here put down the new version and picking it to death but infact if it had been a members new build they would have praised him for a job well done.

It's all about perspective but that perspective is different for everyone and I respect that. It's your car, your money, your time, I say enjoy the car however you see fit.

But I will say this, I understand some cars are just built to look at and I'm not a person to own paper weights, what I own and the hot rods I like are the ones with rock chips. Give me something to drive, to actually experience. I will walk by a 200,000 dollar trailer queen to look at a 20,000 dollar hot rod complete with rock chips and oil leaks every time because I know that car and that owner have a story to tell and 9 out 10 times it's some good stories....


...

 

I’m in the gray area of this discussion with my Pisano Bros Stude pickup. It has history by virtue of the owners/builders but no significance in terms of magazine coverage or local fame. It was a mild custom / hot rod shop truck, like many others in the early 60s. I got it running and driving after 50 years of warehouse storage but it’s not very suitable to drive to regularly on today’s highways.
Unlike some, I knew the builders well and I am poised to make changes that I know they would have made had they continued using this truck. The stock ‘59 Pontiac 389 will be replaced by a mildly hopped up ‘62 389. (hopefully with the Rochester FI that it came with). The StratoFlight automatic will be replaced by a beefed up TH400. And the ‘56 Chevy rear axle will be replaced by a ‘64 Corvette independent rear end with Positraction. All period correct pieces. I knew and worked for Carman Pisano and I’m sure he would have made these “next generation” changes if the brothers hadn’t been overcome by a fascination with the new-for-1964 El Caminos. The only thing missing will be a 5/8” M/T stroker crank for the ‘62 389. He was a no subs***ute for cubic inches guy. But it will get custom headers and a bigger exhaust system - also his trademarks.
The new engine and trans are done, the drum brake rear end awaiting installation, and the updates won’t change the look of the truck at all - just the perceived reliability and drivability.
But the problem is, I just love how the old, revived pickup looks and runs after all these years. Yeah, it wanders a little, the drum brakes have a mind of their own and power steering would make driving a little less of an upper body workout but it’s like driving a time capsule and I smile every time I look at it. It’s like the old, worn 9/16 open end wrench or ratchet that you reach for instead of the spanking new Snap-On version, it just feels special.
Maybe someday I’ll restore it to the shiny Daytona Blue, peppy, tow car, daily driver status it once had….. maybe. Until then, I’ll just enjoy immersing myself in the soul of an old hot rod pickup.

 

The paint dabbing, chalk marking crowd can't have all the good stuff. This is my buddies '55 210. Survivor original with a six & 'Glide. He didn't have to restore a car before getting to the fun part. We have a friend who thinks original cars are sacred. We laugh at him.

 

My little story doesn't concern a nationally historic, built in the day custom. But it does concern a locally famous builder, and a car he was working on in the late 70's.
John Pazsik was probably the best painter, and one of the last customizers in NJ, when customs had gone out of style. He still owned a 54 Merc that had won just about every trophy possible in the major shows in the area. Still doing custom paint, and custom bodywork on motorcycles, race cars, VW's, and any other thing that the owner would agree to.
At the very beginning of the Kustom revival, the older fellows in the area, returned to him to build them Kustoms. I started working for him right around this time, 1978. First thing I did was block out red lead on a chopped VW.
George Wallace was a local guy with a penchant for unique, flashy cars. He had John repair some of his work vans, and personal vehicles. He got caught up in the craze, and bought a low mile 61 Dodge Pioneer. John would work on it nights, and weekends, as George's budget allowed. It never got finished, George got divorced, and the car sat abandoned in a detached garage.
Vic Collins saw the car, and knew what it was, as he used to visit John's shop when he was young. He purchased it, but later traded it to me for work on his Shoebox Ford.
Since I knew the car well, having done minor work on it, and knowing George personally, I decided to keep the custom decisions they made. Even though I could think of better things that could have been done. The car had scoops built into the roof, tunneled 53 Buick tail lights, Hand made tube grill, molded lake pipes, shortened side trim, and partially pancaked hood.
I fixed the rot it picked up during storage, stripped it to bare, and painted it, George had chosen Autumn Maple metallic, but I wanted something more in line with the look of the wild styling of the 60's car. A Watson style panel job, in custom mixed Candy Fuschia, and white Abalone flake. To match the Fuschia Zodiac and pearl white upholstery.
The car was recognized by quite a few older guys in NJ, who were hot rodders and custom guys. Even though it had been off the road for 20 years. The big surprise came when I attended a cruise night, and was awarded a trophy. It was donated, and chosen by a local repair shop. The guy who gave it to me, was a younger man, who remembered the car being worked on at his father's shop (mechanically). He knew George, and his car, and wondered what happened to it. Now, 20+ years later, he recognized it.
Not super famous, not a Barris or Winfield, but to the local rodders and custom guys, it was a survivor, and I'm glad I preserved the original custom treatments, instead of making it completely my own!

 

I agree with Mark. I think there are different levels of survivorship. I think if the car has history and it is significant, then by all means save it.

I used to own Cody Parr's old altered "The Apache". It had lived outside for the past 30 years. It had a tree growing up through the middle of the engine bay. The old lacquer paint was cracked and flaking off in chunks. It had a roll cage filled with lead and his name was chain drilled into the dash. It was apparently done by a 16 year old Cody. It was a national record holder a few years.

I restored the car in 1990, but I had to change the cage to meet NHRA specs. I kept the original engine, injectors, wheels body, grille shell and ch***is. I changed the color and the seat. So, did I ruin the car? I don't think so....

The original car:


I'll look for pics from the 90's Not sure how many I have.