Projects More then it's worth

Ditto! Everyone of my Willys, Corvettes and 55-57 Chevy's , I got more than I had in them. I do all my own work except for bodywork but I also have good friends and we work things out to each one's satisfaction. A friend of mine has over 50g's in a 46 GMC pick up stocker that he admits he won't get 30,000. for.

Pat

 

I've been playing w/cars for a VERY LONG time, 50+ years, my hobby cars have not really cost me any $$$, IF I don't figure in my time, shop, etc., Have always been lucky buying/selling or trading my hobby cars, A man needs a hobby of some sort, was invested in racing hobby for 20+ years, now that's a different story, BIG $$$ involved and lost, no regrets, great memories, priceless, AND the biggest positive I took away from racing is that ANYTHING you do or buy seems very reasonable. Hot Rodding/HobbyCars are what you want to put in, not what you have to put in $$$.

 

One factor that works for me is many are sold as running, driving, functioning vehicles in primer with all the fabricating, bodywork done, use as is or finish as you like. Resale red is costly and alienates many who wouldn't want red. While I do finish others to completion. I try to be tasteful and timeless in body mods or close to a specific period, it makes when/if I sell easier. I build what I like and others seem to like it as well. My taste is pretty simple. Name brand components for the bragging rights doesn't impress me. Don't need a Ron Francis wiring system, Ididit steering column, dynamatt to deaden sound, etc. All that is fine but I don't catalog buy much that keeps the cost down. Not bragging or bagging anyone who don't or can't there's room for everyone. Fourdy your 40 looks great.

 

For those of us who do it strictly as a hobby, if I put 20k in parts and material and 1000 hours and sell it for 20k, I made money. How many hobbies can you pursue and enjoy for zero cash outlay?

 

The only way it's "free" time is if it's time spent in other ways that's off the clock. I had someone tell me I didn't even break minimum wage on something I did a long time ago. While I certainly did, it was time that otherwise would be free. My response was "What's it worth to sit on my fat ass and watch TV?" Of course that was in my youth when I could work 10 hrs and then go home and work another 3-5 in the garage. My business is selling labor these days. The cars I do, well pick the right one and it's a wash or they can get paid to own it even if it's just a single-digit percentage. The reality for some is that a couple thousand hours into a big full build is usually well over the top. It can be justified somtimes, if you consider that a new Bentley is $220K. Sell it 5 years later with 20K miles on it and it's worth about $100K or less. The cost of ownership, so what would you rather own? A personal build tailored to your taste or a new Bentley? I've made a lot of $$$$$ flipping cars and parts, the highest return on those needing the least amount of labor.

 

Sounds like you have the skills, tools, shop to Git-R-Dun, thinking you will do well, have had some friends that made a living having small fab shops, knowing their market and customer base, the cars you spoke of/ big loss for builder/owner are the guys that go somewhere and say " Build It" write a check when done and sell when interest is lost in car. IMO, Majority of our Hobby is not the men w/ real deep pockets, in your case maybe you can work up to that level and deal w/ that customer and make some big money if thats your goal, ran my own business for 37 years and after awhile for me it was not about the last $$$ to be made, just to be on my own and do it my way was my satisfaction. Good Luck ! Sounds like you are on your way.

 

you nailed it !!

 

For years, that saying " you can't get back what you put into it" was true. Now days, many of the boomers are retried, have cash that they didn't have before, and they end up over spending because they want to relive their youth , which drives up the price for everyone.

 

A good trick to keep track of these words is that then is usually used to indicate time. Both then and time have a letter “E” in them.

Than is used to make comparisons. Both than and comparison have a letter “A” in them.


Beaner hit it on the head if you bother to catch it.
The comparison between making money (profit) and making wages.

Here's the latest deal where a guy can make more than what's into it.
A guy came by and wanted to know if I were interested in his low mileage and good running but well rusted into oblivion car. I said sure, I'll give you the current scrap junk yard price and pick it up. Nope he wants more, lots more because the engine and trans are worth over 500, the glass is perfect and worth more and the aluminum wheels blah blah blah blah.
I told him yes the parts are worth more, however the time to remove them, list them, store them needs to be accounted for. I then told him I'd remove the engine and for him at a cost of 300 and then he could sell it for 500, I told him he'd be making $200 profit on that deal, he didn't like logic or the ideas of listing it, loading it, dealing with it for $ 200. You see his time was worth way more than mine. It's ok for me to not make any money on that deal.

Last year my buddy sold a transmission for $150.00 out of a free mini van. Him and his brother both farted around for 6 hrs getting it out and another 2hrs each delivering and back. Then about 2 hrs cleaning up the mess. Then another endless ass-ache dealing with an immobilized vehicle. 20 hrs time for 150.00 ? Yep they got more than the had into it.

 

How do you do that? ( unless you're passed out !)
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I always loose money on cars, but I don't care. I make it back fixing people's houses.

 

Didn't notice the wrong spelling and I know better, thanks for bringing it to my attention. Not sure how to change it now.

 

Hard to put a value on "what it's worth" in fun and satisfaction. Most people tend to tie everything to a monetary value when there's really more to it than that. Does that make any sense to anyone else?

 

Sure does.

Once you take a hobby and decide to make a few Nickles with it - it gets even more fun . Once you try making a living with your hobby it's no longer a hobby. Is your job and quite possibly the best one ever, but it's still a job.

Try this - Go to work and don't clock in and tell your boss he can just buy you your materials and he don't have to pay you. Have all the fun you can possibly have, do it again the next day too.

 

Usually, I start with junk I got cheap. I buy whole cars or trucks for the parts I need. I do everything myself (probably not up to some peoples standards, but OK with most). The build takes somewhere around 2 years to be road worthy. I drive the "new" ride around 3 years making improvements along the way, before I get bored, or something else catches my eye. The "new" project comes home, the "new" build starts, and the "old" one moves over to the maintain and enjoy status. About the time the new build is roadworthy, the "old" one goes up for sale. I figure if I can get the money I've spent buying parts back out of it when it sells, I've made money. Its been a free ride for 3-5 years. My labor doesn't cost me anything, but it does cost everyone else the going shop rate. When I work on my junk, its a hobby, when I work on someone ease's stuff its my job. I couldn't be in the hobby if I had to pay for the 2,000 hours I may have worked on my own stuff.

Often I use my project to show customers what needs to be done on their stuff, why it will take the time it will take, and how it will look when I'm done. That probably represents about 1/2 the jobs I've gotten over the last 23 years. How do I put a value on that? Gene

 

Got a question for the pros on this thread. When you finish a customers car, do you get to drive it around for 3-4 months afterwards? Build it the way you think it should be built, or per the customers wants? Take it to the drags when its done? Its easy to put a cash value on the tangibles...

 

To answer your question, yes you are the minority.
Most hot rodders build their cars to drive and enjoy, - not to try to sell for a profit.

 

I've had three outcomes over the years: lost money, broke even, made money. Never have figured in labor because that's the "fun" for me, a hobby. Sold my C-10 and T speedster to finance my current build, 64 Comet. Made money on the truck and speedster so I don't have to dig into my pockets for the Comet, I consider myself lucky.

Everyone approaches it from a different angle.

 

George,
I don't claim to be a pro, but when I finish a big job I drive the car until I'm satisfied with it. It usually takes 2 or 3 days of tinkering after the job is finished.

Customers have the last say, but they usually listen to what I think needs to be done (which is always more than they think).

As far as taking one to the strip I'll beat my stuff like a rented mule, but I only drive a customers car hard enough to make sure everything is working the way it should be. If they have a complaint about something going on when they "abuse" it, I let them drive to show me what's going on. Some of those rides get pretty interesting.

Here's one I started test driving Monday, put the hood on it Friday and watched it drive off into the sunset.

 

For the ones I do there's not a lot of driving involved, at least not the way we look at "our stuff". Yes they go on tours, get some local use by their owners, sometimes just a joy ride out and around whatever show they're at. One of my clients is driving the shit out of his but it wasn't a full restoration, not yet at least but the rest of the car will get done soon. Even though many will say that cars are not a good investment I can't think of anything in the long term that didn't make money. I'm also doing an O/T hot rod that he'll never see the money out of it that he put into it. Just the body was $30K. Add a Lobeck's chassis with IFS, IRS, all the optional polished stainless suspension parts, then a custome engine/trans build. He was over the top before the 1st piece of sandpaper was folded. Doesn't matter to him, it's what he wants. No. I'll have very little seat time in it and that's probably my personal choice as much as it's his car anyway. My 39 is another story because my cash outlay will be about 1/2 it's retail value once done. No. not including my time. Again, what's it worth to sit on my fat ass after hours and watch TV? What's it worth to cut my grass?

 

Love it ----" Yes Mam', when it was done we took the car out for a road test ( on Sunday) and it runs great" ( 12.5 in the quarter mile).

 

I'd fall into the win some, lose some camp. I've done really well on some cars that I just brought home, maybe knocked out a few projects on, and then resold, I've lost my ass on a few, I've traded out to get other cars or to get my projects worked on by others, etc. Buying/selling/swapping can be just as much fun as the build, even if I don't come out on top every time.

My real money comes from buying and selling parts. Guys know what they have in their cars, or what they're "worth" in their minds, so buying can be tough, and selling can be even tougher, when people have expectations of how much work they're willing to do to a project or what they'll pay for a finished one. But parts are the sweet spot, lots of people willing to dump a garage full of small parts cheap just to make space, and lots of buyers willing to pay top dollar for the one single piece they need to finish their build, it just takes time to put the stuff out there and send it to their door.

 

Buy em' ,clean 'em up,sell the dream.
Don't forget to add the time spent hunting a project down,negotiating,going back home for truck and trailer,loading,buying lunch for a helper,gas,cleaning supplies,etc.
If one keeps track of those expenses even doublingf the purchase price might not really leave much of a profit.

 

Most stuff is worth more apart than together.
So if that constant remains true, there's $ more in disassembly and moving parts than there is is buying parts, building cars selling them.
I've seen it happen over and over again , providing the market demand for the parts is there.

 

I manage to sell my stuff for more than I have in it , BUT I do not consider my labor as a cost. I am retired ,I like working in the garage and I make it kind of game to see how much I can do with so little. I spent an hr. the other day cutting a door skin off a newer mini van going to the crusher. I needed a large piece for a lower 57 door and this one was free. Shop supplies are always free, I take all the money from fixing my neighbors lawnmower or welding on his golf cart trailer and put it in a coffee can. When ever I get low on welding wire or zip ties there is money there. Yes I consider that free also because all I did was help out my neighbor .All this being said I do not build fantastic hot rods that people drool over , but there always seems to be someone to buy them.

 

Something not mentioned here is that the real money is made on the buy and not the sell. Get the right car for the right price and you can't go wrong selling it whether you fix it up or not.

Another thing is that when some guy drops six figures on a build and then drives it for a few years it's basically the same as buying a new car for six figures and driving it. In other words, you're not gonna get your money back on either one but you do get the pleasure of driving it.

 

The true cost of a car should be the sum of the cost of the parts, the value of the labor, and any overhead incurred. Cost of parts is easy, add up the true cost. If you drive 900 miles to get a frame, that 900 miles is a cost. If you used the 900 mile trip as an excuse to stop at the giant ball of string on display on the interstate, the trip is still a cost. Your labor cost is pretty easy..... what could you make if you did something else than work on this car? IF you are a painter and paint on the side while charging $35 an hour, then your labor is valued at $35 an hour. You can adjust for FICA, withholding, etc. but your labor still has value. If you are retired, what is your potential earnings at maybe McDonald's? Sitting on the couch is not productive and is not a labor cost. Overhead is a tricky one. IF you run the garage A/C when you are building the car but not normally, the electricity is an overhead cost. Tools are overhead. Hospital visits are overhead if you smack your finger. The sum should verify what it really would cost to replace the car.... what you would really insure the car for. Some folks insure their car for "parts only" value and when they get it stolen, they painfully realize that their work has to be repeated at zero value. Building a car should be considered a business by the builder. If you are worth zero, use zero for your calculations.

 

I dont sell my ol cars so I dont keep track of what it cost to keep one running. My newest car is 51 years old. I believe the value of a car is to drive it. I never have bought a new car and intend to never buy a new one. In that sense my cars dont 'cost' but they do pay their way because I have never had a car payment.

 

You can't put a price on the fun you have once you finish the car. The labor is where it adds up, otherwise it's just a pile of rusty parts.

 

Hell, on-the-average, after theft-of-service, lawsuits for breach of contract, lien sales, etc., I rarely made money on cars that I was contracted to build.

 

Each of the last four years I've sold a car at the NSRA Nats in Louisville. Made money on all of them. Just made 5K selling my 64 Biscayne. The car in my avatar is recent frame off, over 300 HP and an M21 with all the best and only 400 miles since completion. Its now for sale and hope for a good result. The key to making money is build cars people want. The last 4 cars I've sold have been a 56 BelAir 2 door post car, a 62 Impala wagon, a 63 BelAir 2 door post car and a 64 Biscayne 2 door post car. All were good looking running and driving cars. I can't afford to do this stuff and lose money. It s not that difficult to supplement your income with an occasional car sale.

Gary