Technical MOTOR, flathead build ... tips tricks???

I had to skim a little and will pick this back up at part 2 when I get off work. I have owned a couple flattys but never got into them much. Now I am buying what is supposed to be a low time later flatty engine for my 29 rpu project so I look foreward to absorbing this whole thread.
One of the other flattys I had was an 8CM merc that was retro fitted to a 300 amp Hobart welder. It ran real sweet and I wish I still had that engine. I am curious tho about what besides the stroke is different? Why don't you see any one using the Merc engines?
Also an old guy from Montana told me they used to go over the border to find some Canadian merc engine for thier old roundy round cars that were over 300 cuic inches. Any truth to that?
Keep up the good work and thanks.

 

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Matt -- Consider running a PCV valve in place of a road-draft tube, and think of its positive contributions to your engine rather than its role in reducing emissions.

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The PCV thread is in techomatic.
PCV installations

 

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I don't think it did, but is this the one you're talking about?

Flathead Intake Post



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rat bastad and/or Fourdy, sorry, it was YOUR PCV setups that I was thinking about. And thanks to Petejoe we have the link.

Thanks Ernie, that was the manifold thread that I had in mind.

Once this thread slows down IT'S GOT TO GO TO TECH-O-MATIC!

Add av8's porting piece and this thread might just be the makings of a BOOK!

Q & A's of the Building of a Flathead!

 

On the PCV, I have finally, after years of scouting the flotsam and jetsam of WWII, captured most of an original Ford PCV setup from a Canadian military engine. I also finally found a diagram and writeup in an old Canadian military Ford service manual. I will try to find someone capable of posting pics and text after my imminent vacation, and will post orifice sizes and such on the hardware. The setup is very similar to the first generation modern PCV's from about 1962, when they were made so they could be disassembled and cleaned. Til mid-August, the valve will remain at the bottom of my carb cleaner pot...60 years of blowby crud is an impressive lump of filth!!
On relieving, you can find modern authoritative flow bench information and flat statements from the great masters of the past completely proving that relieving is A. Very beneficial. B. Harmful. C. Don't make no nevermind. Take your pick. I have no flowbench or dyno, so my opinion ain't worth nuttin on this, but I read every scrap of airflow information I can find in books by Yunick, Jenkins, and Vizard, and I have trouble believing that air can possibly turn into the traditional relief area. I think the issues are upstairs, in the roof of the chamber, and the only work needed below is improvement of the stock funnel areas around the valves, which are a logical continuation of the flow pattern that should be coming out of the final angle of the seat...
On factory relieving--this is the straight kind, made by a single pass with a mill. There's lots of speculation on exactly which engines got this an why. The only factory info
I've ever seen was on the big Lincoln/Truck 337 engine in a service bulletin from about 1950. Ford started relieving this engine in mid production on the manfacturing line (same way as early engines) and put out a bulletin calling for dealers to relieve engines in service. This was stated to be to prevent cracking in truck use.

 

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I am curious tho about what besides the stroke is different? Why don't you see any one using the Merc engines?

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I'm not sure, but up in my part of the country, there are lots of Merc engines still being run. The crankshaft (stroke) was about the only difference between the engines. Everything would interchange between the Ford and the Merc engines.

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Also an old guy from Montana told me they used to go over the border to find some Canadian merc engine for thier old roundy round cars that were over 300 cuic inches. Any truth to that?

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From all the info I have, FoMoCo only made an "E" series engine in Canada that had over 300 c.i. They were used in the BIG trucks and some Lincons. Plus they were HEAVY!

 

This is the extent of relief work we've been doing -- just a softening of the flycut and polishing the transfer area.




For blocks with a factory relief, like this French block, I blend the sharp corners then polish the transfer area.

 

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This is the extent of relief work we've been doing -- just a softening of the flycut and polishing the transfer area.

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Mike - I think that's more & more the current thinking as folks do more flow work. I know Joe Abbin is working on the valve area immediately above the intake right now with his flow work. I should get out his way in the next couple of months - I'll try to take pics & get good info.

Having said that, Harley invested a lot of money into R&D for their race program & ALL of their factory racers were step relieved in the block & the head. I know it's not quite apples & apples & the Harleys have a slightly different valve inclination, but...

 

On a kind of related note. I was masking and painting my dads 59 block the other day and I noticed that every thing (cylinders – valves – head) on the left side of the block is about 3/8 lower than the right. Anybody Know why?

 

Flatheads have different valve-to-engine-centerline angles on each side. Also, crank is offset from centerline of block...and cam is a bit offset from centerline of crank...
I have a 99A diagram in front of me: Right valves 49.36 degrees, left 52.9. Your 59A differs from this very slightly, but I don't have those numbers here. Left valves are quite noticeably farther down the deck than right.

 

Lots of good info guys, thanks. I've got a question that nobody has brought up. At least lately. What about the stock style oil filter. Do they work worth a hoot? I've heard some people say they do, I've heard others say trash em. I know it makes sense to run one, but what if you just change the oil more often? Can you just plug the oil filter feed and return lines with no problems there? It's been awhile since I posted last so I'll tell you I've got a 50 Ford with a basically stock engine. Thanks.

 

The stock filter is a bypass, filtering only a small percentage of the oil that is being pumped but running it through a considerably finer element than a full flow filter would have. I think the correct recipe for clean oil in a flathead should include 180 thermostats (start controversy...) or restrictors of equivalent function and a PCV. My next full buildup will probably retain the stock filter in a system with a full flow filter too. This is the general approach used on big, expensive industrial engines to allow filtering of the oil to bearings AND fine particle filtering as well.
To block off a stock filter, just plug the holes in block and/or pan it attaches to.

 

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What about the stock style oil filter. Do they work worth a hoot? I've heard some people say they do, I've heard others say trash em.

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Ford's original design for oil filtering was lousy to say the least. As Bruce describes above; only a small amount of the oil actually passed through the filter.

If the engine is run with "dress" kinds of air filters (or non at all) on the carb(s) and you live in an area that has a lot of dust floating around, the "crap" gets pulled into the engine, then the best oil filtering system made isn't going to keep up.

Changing oil frequently WILL help, but the best combination IMHO is a good "full flow" oil filter AND good air filters on the carb(s) AND regular oil changes. The filter in the oil filler cap needs improvement also.

 

This is one of the best posts for newbies to flatheads. It's almost as if; when I have a flathead question, I can look for this post and the answer is in there somewhere. matt

 

I have two questions if you all don't mind helping a flathead virgin. Can you guys explain how plumb the engine for a full flow filter system and what all is needed. I am still a long way from that but trying to get all ducks in a row before I screw up. I've got Ron Hollerans book ordered, it may cover it, and I have Mike Bishops A-V8 book but its over at Dads and I haven't looked at it for a while, so if I'm asking a question that is explained in these books please excuse the questions. Also, I have a question on timing. I have a stock 221 in a 39 sedan that was running a touch warm, I had bad pumps so I changed them to the new style that the guy in Florida is doing (seemed to drop temperature about 10 degrees)... after doing all of this I started messing with the timing adjustment on the stock 39 distributor. I know that I am probably too far advanced now, but I adjusted the timing to have as much advance as possible. This made more drop in temps, the car doesn't ping under a load, and seems to have better power. It just seems like I advanced it an awful lot. What would be the corect way to time it? I tried the vacumn gauge, but in order to achieve the highest reading I had to retard it all the way, that didn't help cooling or power...Thanks tim

 

The vac method gives you an idle setting without addressing the curve, and may well leave you with poor results at higher RPM. Since you're experimenting with timing, I think it's worth using the interference method of finding real TDC and marking the pulley at approx 0-5-10-20-25 so you're not working in the dark. You can use a sharpened stud in place of a timing cover bolt as marker. Measure pulley and calculate distances to lay out marks from zero. You have another toy to play with since the distributor has a vac brake on the timing: loosen that up all the way (turn it out by hand after releasing lock bolt, as you can pop the spring seat right off of the adjuster with a wrench) and test--that brake slows advance curve as you turn it in. Adjust to fastest curve with no ping--which may be all the way out on modern gas.
Leave some drag in the brake, as that apparently stabilizes the advance mech.
Ron's book is one of the best, and explains how to drill out the oil passages at the back to fit a full flow filter that filters all except rear main, just like an SBC. Red's sells a kit and instructions that may be different--I don't know.

 

Bruce, thank you. I will definately give it a try. It seems like I read somewhere else that the vacumn brake could be backed off quite a bit with todays gas. Thanks for you input. tim

 

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Can you guys explain how plumb the engine for a full flow filter system and what all is needed.

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Here's some info, I've gathered.

Oil filters on Flathead Fords were the old by-pass type which shunted off a small portion of the oil supply to the filter. If there was dirt or grit in the oil which could get past the screen on the oil pump pick-up, chances are it would circulate through the engine a few times before it found its way to the filter. Modern engines use full flow oil filters which filter all the oil before it is circulated through the engine, trapping any particles before they can get to your bearings. This article will show you how to adapt a full flow filter to your flathead.

What we must do is modify the oil pump so it pumps out through the pump cover, through tubing out the side of the oil pan, through another tube to the filter, and then through a third tube back into the engine.

The pump is modified by plugging the outlet port by brazing a steel plug in the slotted outlet hole and making a new outlet in the pump cover plate. A new cover plate was fabricated out of 3/8" steel plate with an outlet hole tapped for a 3/8" pipe thread. The side of the plate that the pump gears run against should be dressed flat and smooth with a surface grinder and then case hardened. A short steel hex pipe nipple like a Weatherhead No. 3069 x 6 is screwed into the new outlet port. Make sure the nipple does not protrude past the inside surface of the plate where it could contact the pump gears. On the other side of the pipe nipple a Weatherhead No. 452 x 8 female elbow is installed which has 3/8" pipe threads on one side and a 1/2" inverted flare tube fitting on the other side to accept the flared 1/2" OD tubing.

Modified pump on left with outlet port plugged and new cover plate added; stock oil pump on right.

A bulkhead fitting must be built to provide pipe thread fittings where the tubing can attach to the oil pan. I made mine out of a piece of 1/4" steel plate and two steel 1/2" pipe half-couplings which were shortened to 1/2" long before welding to the plate. A length of 1/2" O.D., .035" wall steel hydraulic tubing is bent up to fit between the oil pump and the bulkhead fitting. The tube goes from the pump across the engine, then forward till it clears the pump pick up screen, back across the engine again and then back a short distance where it will screw into a Weatherhead No. 402 x 8x8 male elbow. The elbow screws into the bulkhead fitting which will mount in a 1-3/8" hole in the flat area on the side of the pan. You will want to make lots of measurements before punching the hole in the oil pan or bending the steel tubing. I used copper tubing for trial fits on all the tubing runs, as it was easy to find and a lot cheaper than the steel tube. Don't be tempted to use the copper tubing in place of the steel, besides being weaker than steel, according to my Weatherhead catalog, copper acts as an oil-oxidation catalyst, causing sludge.

Pump and tubing installed on engine, ready for oil pan.

On the outside of the pan a heavy 3" O.D. washer with a 1-3/8" 1.D. was drilled to match the mounting holes in the bulkhead adapter, with a gasket between the pan and the flange. The oil filter adapter is a J.C. Whitney No. 84GK0625T with two more No. 402 x 8x8 male elbows and mounted to the side of the oil pan with an "L" shaped bracket. The bracket is fastened with two 1/4-20 bolts which screw into nuts brazed to the inside of the pan. Check for clearance here between the bolts and the crankshaft counterweights and rods.

One more 402 x 8x8 male elbow is used to screw into the bulkhead adapter and a tube runs from it to the inlet port of the filter. Another tube goes from the outlet port of the filter to the boss at the left rear of the engine. A 45° street elbow Weatherhead number 3350 x 4 and a 1/4" pipe to 1/2 " tube adapter Weatherhead number 202 x 8 x 4 connects the tube to the 1/4 " pipe threads in the block. The tube nuts used on all the tubing runs are Weatherhead number 100 x 8. The filter is a Fram PH-8 which has a built-in bypass valve and anti-drain back valve.

I'm listing the tubing bending details here that I ended up with on my engine, they may not fit another situation exactly because of minor differences in the fabricated brackets and adapters but at least will give a starting point. All dimensions are to the center line of the tubing and all bends have a 1-1/2" radius. Also note that bending steel tubing requires a good tube bender, spring type benders won't do. I used a Rigid No. 398 for this project.
The inside tube from the pump to the pan measures 3" from the end of the tube farthest from the pump to the center of the tube at the first bend, then 6-9/16" between centers to the second bend, then 7-1/8" to the third bend, and 7" from the third bend to the end of the tube at the pump. All bends in this piece are made in the same plane, without rotating the tube as it is advanced in the bender.

The tube from the pan to the inlet of the filter should be marked at 4" and 7-3/8". The first bend at 4" is about 30°, then the tube is advanced in the bender to the 7-3/8" mark and rotated 90° clockwise looking at the end of the bender. Now bend the tube 90°. The length from this bend to the end is about 9-7/16." Allow some extra length here so the other tube from the filter outlet to the block can be made up and both trimmed to the same length.

The last tube is 3" from the block end to the first 90° bend. The second bend is made 4-1/4" from the first bend. Advance the tube in the bender to the mark for the second bend and rotate the tube 90° clockwise, then bend the tube about 42°. From this bend to the end of the tube is about 10-1/2", match it up to the end of the other tube before cutting.

When I finally had the tubing inside the oil pan correctly positioned to line up with the hole in the pan, and all the fittings were tight, I soldered the brass tubing nuts to the brass elbows to lock them in place.

A late model oil pump should be used, which has the oil pressure relief valve built into the pump. I believe these were used from 1949 to 1953. When using this pump in the 1948 and earlier blocks, the oil pressure relief valve in the front of the valley chamber should be disabled by replacing the spring with one that is stiffer than the one in the pump. This puts the pressure relief valve in the correct part of the circuit, protecting the filter from unregulated oil pressure.

I am pleased with the way this project turned out, aside from modifying the pump and cutting the hole in the pan, the rest of the pieces just bolt on. My exhaust headers are home made, so I can't say that every engine will have clearance for the filter. My car hasn't been driven on the street yet, but the engine has been run in the garage and the oil pressure looks fine. The oil pressure and volume may be slightly increased with this modification because that portion of the flow that would have been diverted to the by-pass filter is now going to the engine.

There are certainly other methods one could use to block off the original output of the oil pump. I would think it would be possible to epoxy a sheet metal patch wrapped with wire over the opening as there shouldn't be very much pressure against the patch after the filter and oil gallery is full and up to pressure. At that point the pressure would be essentially the same inside and outside of the pump.
Also other materials could be used for the new pump cover. Brass, or cast iron would be good. Maybe one could drill a hole in the original cover and sandwich a thicker plate on top to hold the fitting. Gasketed, of course.


Maybe this will help to keep some of that old iron running a little longer.

Bill Mumaw


Here's another example...


Oil Filtering System from (carl roseville)



This is how I do the 95% oil filtration system. First remember that this should be done only on engines that you are going to rebuild and clean completely as shavings do no good in the oil system. On 59 series blocks you will have ¼ NPT female pipe thread openings at the back of the block (where your pressure sender is usually located)one vertical and one horizontal. With the block on the floor, drill the vertical opening 9/16 dia. down into the oil pump cavity. Its usually ¼ dia. and this will increase your volume to the filter.



This can be tricky as you will have to go slow if doing it by hand and the drill may want to send you in circles. I do it in stages with ever increasing drill sizes when not using a drill press. It can be done by hand.
After the vertical hole is complete open up the two ¼ NPT openings with a 37/64 drill bit and tap to 3/8 NPT . When this is complete place a ¼ to 5/16 rod in the horizontal hole that feeds the oil gallery and lay out a place to drill and intersect this line.



Some blocks have a flat spot that you can drill through (some don't) just make sure that it will intersect the oil line below, that's why the rod is important so that you can gauge where it is. Use a small pilot drill to do this job to make sure you don't miss it. Then drill this out with 37/64 drill and tap 3/8 NPT .This will be your return line attach point from the filter. You should now have three 3/8 NPT female holes in your block.



Two of these will be on the vertical post which is the feed to your filter.
Through the horizontal 3/8 NPT hole you will see the oil feed line to the block. On the inside of the hole drill it out to accept a 7/16 set screw and set the screw deep enough so that it will not interfere with the oil flow through this passage. I also use locktite on the set screw to keep it in place.



After this is done you can remove the pump rod bushing and drill and tap the upper boss to plug it off if you are using an electric fuel pump (I do this when using electric's to eliminate as much restriction as possible). If you do this you must turn the rear cam bearing 90 degrees to block off the fuel pump bushing hole also. This will remove the bushing as a little bit of a restriction in the oil gallery line or if you are using a stock pump you can leave it in and run the mechanical pump. On 8BA's Ford changed the way the gallery runs, and the bushing is not in the gallery, and it makes no difference to remove it or not. When running electric fuel pumps on 8BA's I usually use a welsh plug in the bushing to keep oil splash from going out the oil fill hole with early intakes on late engines and no block off plates.
When you are done it should look something like this.



I also hear that Red's sell a full flow kit for around 50.00.
And finally, heres some info from Billbens board.
full flow info.
PJ.

 

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I was marking TDC using the interference method...and I just realized with the offset this won't give me the exact TDC will it? The mark I scribed fell right next to a factory bump on the pulley - the true TDC?

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I hadn't thought of that. Interesting. If you're doing the interference on the #1 cylinder, I would think you'd be OK.

But it got me thinking - I wonder if there's any value added to do an interference check on each bank & split the difference...

 

Mike, I spoke with my engine builder about a truck pump and was told Melling only makes two pumps. The std. and the High po{that being the bouble hump} he says he only reccomends the std. on new rebuilds. If there is another pump please let us know where and what to buy.Thank you Mike you do a great job.--TV

 

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I was marking TDC using the interference method...and I just realized with the offset this won't give me the exact TDC will it? The mark I scribed fell right next to a factory bump on the pulley - the true TDC?

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I hadn't thought of that. Interesting. If you're doing the interference on the #1 cylinder, I would think you'd be OK.

But it got me thinking - I wonder if there's any value added to do an interference check on each bank & split the difference...



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Because of a mix of front cam gear cover, (with pointer) and unknown vintage, modified crank pulley, and a different crank than was in the engine originally, I did an interference for TDC check from both #1 and # 5. Ford must have planned for all of this because the TDC mark on the pulley (what was left of it) was almost "bang on."

 

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I did an interference for TDC check from both #1 and # 5. Ford must have planned for all of this because the TDC mark on the pulley (what was left of it) was almost "bang on."

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Well, there you have it! Thanks, Dave! - saves me from wondering! Makes sense, but the offset crank got me to wondering a bit...

 

Hi Guys,

Since this is turning into the ULTIMATE FLATHEAD TECH POST I thought I might ask another tech question:

On my 8BA im currently running the truck heads, and am wondering if there is any benefit to milling these heads, or any other 8BA head (which is the best) and if so, how much. I've heard and read in the Tex Smith flathad book that 060 is a good amount to take of the head. Anyone know what the final CR will be on an otherwise stock 8BA and how much difference this will produce torque/hp wise?

Thanks!!!

Danny

 

any rule of thumb when smothing around valve. any more imput on this?

 

Hey guys, thanks for all the great info! Great thread.

 

zgears -- I'm assuming you're talking about putting a soft radius on the flycut valve pocket in the deck.

First put complete old valve assemblies (valve, guide, spring, cap, and keepers) in the cylinder being worked on (see the picture of the French block above; it has valve assemblies in the cylider that hasn't been releived). The old valves protect the valve seats during any grinding or polishing on the deck.

Dress a 1/2-inch ruby porting stone into a flame shape like the one shown below and carefully blend the valve pockets, rounding off and smoothing the sharp edge of the flycut.

Then, use tapered sanding rolls to smooth and polish the deck. Start with an 80 grit, then go to a 120, and finish it with a 240, using grinder's grease for each step. Thoroughly clean the polished area with lacquer thinner before changing to a finer grit to remove the rougher grit just used.

 

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Dress a 1/2-inch ruby porting stone into a flame shape like the one shown below....

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Mike, what method do you use to dress your grind stones??

 

Dave -- I use a carborundum dressing stick, about $3.50 at Cylinder Head Abrasives. CHA has the best selection of quality porting expendables I know of. Their website is . . .

ruffstuff.com

 

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On my 8BA im currently running the truck heads, and am wondering if there is any benefit to milling these heads... I've heard and read in the Tex Smith flathad book that 060 is a good amount to take of the head.
Danny

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Danny, part of the problem about milling stock heads is; Have they been TRUED (milled) BEFORE?

If your engine had been rebuilt previously it's possible that a "truing" cut could have been done on the heads. Taking another .060 off stock heads MIGHT cause interference between the head(s) and the valves (depending on the valve lift) and possibly the tops of the pistons. (especially "pop up" types)

Maybe start with the stock heads and used head gaskets; place pieces of modeling clay on the top of a couple of the pistons and the valves, put the heads in place (hold in place with just a couple of the head bolts) and SLOWLY roll the engine over. (turn the crank a couple of times)

IF when you "roll the crank" you meet solid resistance; STOP! You don't have enough clearance! (this would be on the assumption of valve/cam and/or piston changes)

Then measure the cross section ("thickness") of the clay. This way you will get an indication of how much further the heads could be milled. You will need a fairly accurate micrometer to make the measurement.

There was a thread not too long ago on "flathead" clearances here on the HAMB - anyone got the link??

As far as CR increase; it would depend on what the heads were originally.

 

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Dave -- I use a carborundum dressing stick ........

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Thanks Mike, the diamond bench grinder stone dresser that I have is just TOO difficult to hang on to!

Ready for Bonneville??!!