Technical MOTOR, flathead build ... tips tricks???

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There was a thread not too long ago on "flathead" clearances here on the HAMB

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measuring clearances with clay

 

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There was a thread not too long ago on "flathead" clearances here on the HAMB

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measuring clearances with clay

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Thanks Petejoe!

Boy, at this rate we almost have the makings of a "FLATHEAD BUILDING REFERENCE" BOOK!!

Like Mike said, "ANY MORE TIPS?" (And/or questions?)

Then this thread HAS TO BE PUT IN TECH-O-MATIC!

 

I can tell you a 100 ways to make a flathead slower.Also 50 things that dont make a difference.

 

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With regard to the Intake Manifold...When speaking with Barney Navarro I mentioned running a 2x2 manifold with his heads. He said that a 3x2 works better (with a progressive linkage) than a 2x2 intake. Can anyone speculate as to why or why not? Or in what circumstances? Matt

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Barney was saying that his 3-2 will work better than other guys' 2-2, because his is designed to flow better to the right cylenders. I've talked about it with him too.

His 3-2 design is more efficient and ensures that all pistons get the same ammount of fuel at the right time.

Additionally, a 3-2 in general has a more even mixture distribution than a 2-2.

About the PCV on a flathead thing...

Jere Jobe and I were talking about this and he illustrated why it might not be such a good idea to run a pcv on a flatty. It came down to the fact that the flathead induction system was never designed to be sucking all that crap (think of that wonderfull sludge that resides in the lifter valley in all the flatty's we've brought back to life) out of the motor and burning it. Remember that flatty's generally don't run as clean internally as your average SBC and add to that the relatively slow mixture speed of a flathead, and it might be a detriment to rig up one of those new-fangled sucky things.

Jere recommends running plenty of passive ventalation with good filtration.

 

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About the PCV on a flathead thing...

Jere Jobe and I were talking about this and he illustrated why it might not be such a good idea to run a pcv on a flatty. It came down to the fact that the flathead induction system was never designed to be sucking all that crap (think of that wonderfull sludge that resides in the lifter valley in all the flatty's we've brought back to life) out of the motor and burning it. Remember that flatty's generally don't run as clean internally as your average SBC and add to that the relatively slow mixture speed of a flathead, and it might be a detriment to rig up one of those new-fangled sucky things.

Jere recommends running plenty of passive ventalation with good filtration.

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Hmmm... But isn't part of the reason that sludge exists in the valley is because there's not PCV system? The passive vacuum created by the dump tube is not enough to pull all the crap out of the engine. Adding a stronger, regulated vacuum to the crank case will help pull excess crap out.

At least that's what the PCV proponets say. Correct?

There have been threads on the HAMB that say the correct thing to do IS add a PCV system.

I'm about to do add a PCV to a flathead I'm building and up till now have been convinced this is the right thing to do.

Thanks,

Mike

 

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I can tell you a 100 ways to make a flathead slower.Also 50 things that dont make a difference.

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Hey Mate,

Id actually like to hear a few of them - I'm sure there are flathead speed myths that everyone believes but actually doesnt do anything for performance. Got a couple you can debunk?

Danny

 

Well since this may turn into a Tech-o-Matic post, I'll offer this. My one and only simple tech post to date. Not half as in-depth and tech as many can do around here, but if you're willing to run old heads, this may help. The original post ain't on the HAMB that I can find so here it is again:

Hi All,

This is my first attempt at an actual (very low) Tech post. Hope it helps.

Please forgive the photography. My camera is old and dying. Time for a new one.

So I got a pair of used Edelbrock heads for my 50 Flathead. They are still true and can be reused, so I decided to clean them. Looking inside each, I saw that there was a lot of built up calcium and gunk from years of use. I posted a question to the HAMB a few weeks ago about how to possibly get this stuff out, and someone suggested using CLR, so I thought I'd give it a try. Here's how I went about it, the results were great.

The tools:
- 1 bottle of CLR per head.
- A funnel.
- Some tape.
- A Vice Grip.
- A Dremel with a fine, small wire wheel attachment used to keep things mixed.



After a couple tries, I came up with this method. First I had to figure out a way to keep water in the heads. There are a lot of water passage holes in these things and trying to plug up each one is just a pain in the ass. I went with the path of least resistance and decided to plug up only the main water outlet and the thermostat holes. This meant the head had to be cleaned while upside down, which worked quite well.

I got a free sheet of scrap 3/8" plastic from Tap Plastics (they were very friendly), and cut a piece to a size that would cover the water outlet hole. I cut a couple holes in the plastic and used the stock water neck to hold it in place. Some gasket material was used to mate the plastic to the head.



I filled the head with one bottle of CLR, and used water to fill to the bottom of the exposed water holes. The Dremel was used as a mixer/agitator, and was held in place by the Vice Grip. The Vice Grip was held in place with tape. I used the lowest spin speed on the Dremel. Here's how it all looked in action, notice that the reaction of the CLR with the calcium created gas bubbles:



I did this for about 3 to 4 hours per head and they are now spotless inside. Due to my crappy camera, I can't show before and after photos, but the results are really good. People warned that the Aluminum may get eaten, but I saw no signs of this. I rinsed each head about 8 times with clean water. As a further precaution, I did add baking soda to the heads to neutralize any remaining acid just in case.

I'm sure this method would work for stock heads too, remember the 'R' in CLR stands for Rust.

Hope it helps,

Mike

 

PJ -- Great post and great info! This is a for-sure mod I'll be doing on my new motor this Winter. I'm thinkg that this, in combination with Mobil One, a PCV valve, 180-degree thermostats, electronic ignition, and a T-5, adds up to a 150K-200K miles of flathead fun before it needs major attention.

BTW, my F-1 had been treated to an electric fuel pump at the time I bought it. The oil pressure read like it would for a tired motor, although this one ran like gangbusters. I pulled the fuel-pump stand and discovered that the pump rod had been removed. Tardel told me it was worth 10-12 pounds, and sure enough -- I installed a fuel-pump rod and the oil pressure came up 12-plus psi across the board, warm or cold, idle or at speed. So, installing a welch plug in the pump-rod bore does more than just reduce oil splash into the lifter valley.

Mike

 

I'd like to hear all of them! I'm still learning. This is worthy of a thread of its own, flatdog.

 

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I can tell you a 100 ways to make a flathead slower.Also 50 things that dont make a difference.

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Hey Mate,

Id actually like to hear a few of them - I'm sure there are flathead speed myths that everyone believes but actually doesnt do anything for performance. Got a couple you can debunk?

Danny

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I aggree Danny. Some of the "Old Wives" tales that have "floated" around for years and changed with each telling, were based on experimentation and often didn't work.

One "tale" that I have always wondered about is, the PLACING OF A BIG WASHER in the upper radiator hose. The "therory" was it would "slow down the circulation of coolant" and there by make the engine run cooler.

Now I'm not trying to start an argument; but somehow SLOWING THE CIRCULATION OF COOLANT would seem to me to be taking a step BACKWARDS! (especially in a flathead!)

Yes, I aggree that thermostats should be used, but making a permanent blockage (restriction) of the flow of coolant in a flathead just doesn't make sense.

Having said that; I'm sure there will be a bunch of flathead fans who will swear it works!

 

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About the PCV on a flathead thing...

Jere Jobe and I were talking about this and he illustrated why it might not be such a good idea to run a pcv on a flatty....

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Hmmm... But isn't part of the reason that sludge exists in the valley is because there's not PCV system? The passive vacuum created by the dump tube is not enough to pull all the crap out of the engine. Adding a stronger, regulated vacuum to the crank case will help pull excess crap out.

At least that's what the PCV proponets say. Correct?

There have been threads on the HAMB that say the correct thing to do IS add a PCV system.

I'm about to do add a PCV to a flathead I'm building and up till now have been convinced this is the right thing to do.

Thanks,

Mike

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Mike, I'm on side with you. The "crud" that forms in flatheads is BECAUSE OF POOR CRANK CASE VENTILATION!

ANYTHING that can improve the ventilation of the crankcase (a PCV setup) in my mind is an IMPROVEMENT!!

My last flathead had full flow oil filtering, a GOOD aircleaner, (filter) a GOOD oil filler cap filter AND a PCV setup; after over 20,000 miles the interior of the engine looked the same as the day it was assembled. CLEAN; NO CRUD!

 

Here are a few Smithy muffler ng for performance ,A H pipe balance tube works well,Navarro stuff works well.Flowmaster muffler muffers work well, seems to run just as well throgh them as open exhaust may need more test.Exhaust hatchtets dont seems to matter.Dont open port up utill you get down to guide.I like to cut a taper on valve guide,then lower port floor,cafefull of water jacket.Match intake manifold port to block to block .Double valve springs are a waste of time and money.I use a tork plate for honing cycl and for valve job.Read a lots of books you will get knowleage from most of them.Had bad luck with total seal rings,.must balance motor .Motor needs 180 temp to run well.Just throwing out some radom stuff.Mike more Bing stuff from your end please.More to come.

 

Flatdog -- I'm having some trouble sorting out your message. Can't tell if you're saying some of the points are bad or not. How about doing a list . . .

Good flathead stuff
1.
2.
3.
etc.

Bad flathead stuff
1.
2.
3.
etc.

I'll be happy to respond and add some things that you might have missed.

Mike

 

Hi Guys,

Keep this info comming. I think we should turn this into one big FH tech post. When everyone is finshed I might colate the information and put it into a downloadable and printable PDF for everyone. This ok with the other posters?

Danny

 

What a great post!love the info provided by AV8 and the rest of the crew.I've just finished my '51 8BA and installed in a Model A/Essex chassis;should be a roller in about 2 weeks.When Fordnutz gets back from BC,I'll get him to take a few pics and post them.

 

Great Post Danny and all !!

Well here's my dilemma

Im rebuilding my Flatty into a mildly blown (5 psi max), 3 5/16" x 3 3/4" street duty with 8BA and have two sets of slugs. This engine will run Offy or 8BA heads, an L100 cam, adjustables, and a std Ford crank to keep piston speed/rod side loading down. This engine will NOT be in a daily driver. Initially I'm gonna run my PM7 then once the engine is broken in, I'll adapt the lung.

Pistons: One set is Badger supplied by Reds Headers - they weigh 630 grams with pins and are 4 ring....heavy for me!!. I also have a set of 3 ring forged Ross pistons - they weigh 425 grams with pins - much lighter.

On the one hand I like to run a tighter piston to bore clearance for street longevity (Badger @ 0.0025) on the other hand the Ross slugs are lighter, will balance up the assembly easier, will improve throttle response, flame travel and are stronger for the blown application, plus have less friction b/c of the 3 ring, plasma moly setup.

The only prob I have with Ross is the higher piston to bore clearance required ie slapping, rock, oil usage.

Have any of you guys used these Ross slugs on the street? Blown or unblown? What piston to bore and ring gap clearances did you run and how did they last ? What was the bore wear like ?

Any info from you guys would fantastic !! Thanx...btw, this is the best Flatty post I've seen on the HAMB.

Rat

 

Mike wrote that late at night.Will set down sometime to put idea on paper.Time is hard to come by.Good collector headers 2, H pipe 3 windage tray oil pan 4 Blower real good.5 You need something to help strengh of center main cap 6 Cut down chevy Intake valves on intake they are difference shape then the exhaust valve. 7 open transfer area in head. 8 MSD system I can change timing with chips ,I know not old school but its works. 9 REV limbiter 10 I put block conners in my exhaust ports( picture on my web site ) I think Bing used that trick also.11 Use the best necked dows valves you can find Manley? 12Seems to be a window of 4 degree timing 20 -24 total that run the same I retard timing degrees pressure to 14 total with blower pressure still have to tune though not 100% sure that right.

 

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Hi Guys,

Keep this info comming. I think we should turn this into one big FH tech post. When everyone is finshed I might colate the information and put it into a downloadable and printable PDF for everyone. This ok with the other posters?

Danny

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I think that's a great idea!

 

Hi Flatdog...good info of which Ive been made aware. When i step up to the blown combo, I will be adding Doug king steel caps to the bottom end.

What is the link to your website?

Rat

 

Dont know how to do links Can get to it throuh Roadsters or punch it in on google.

 

Flatdog, took the liberty of separating your list...

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GOOD STUFF FOR FLATHEADS

1. collector headers
2. H pipe
3. windage tray oil pan
4. Blower REAL good! (of course I aggree; I have a SCoT!)
5. You need something to help strength of center main cap
6. Cut down chevy Intake valves on intake, (if) they are difference shape then the exhaust valve. (also) Use the best necked down valves you can find; Manley?
7. open transfer area in head.
8. MSD (ignition) system. I can change timing with chips ,I know not "old school" but its works.
9. REV limiter
10. I put block conners in my exhaust ports( picture on my web site ) I think Bing used that trick also.
11.Seems to be a window of 4 degree timing; 20 -24 total that run the same.
I retard timing degrees pressure to 14 total with blower pressure, still have to tune though, not 100% sure that's right.

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That a little easier to read?
Did I miss anything?

Back to number 3. What kind of windage tray are/do you use?

#5. If strengthing the center main cap, is there anything to be gained by strengthing the FRONT and REAR caps also?

I came across a set of "main cap bars" at a swap meet for all three. One of the bolts was missing, (keep in mind 59A blocks used "studs") so checked with a local "hi-per" dealer and found that they had 406/428 ARP girdle studs with hardened washers and nuts; THAT WORK! Right diameter (1/2") and thread pitch the same; AND, LONG enough with extra hardened washers for spacers, to hold the bars in place.

Overkill??

 

Dave ,THANKS.#3 made it myselve.#5 I dont know, I used a T aton 4 bolt main cap .The webs on the block dont seem that strong to me,the end bolts on the cap going to water jacket look to me to beef the block up there??

 

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Hmmm... But isn't part of the reason that sludge exists in the valley is because there's not PCV system? The passive vacuum created by the dump tube is not enough to pull all the crap out of the engine. Adding a stronger, regulated vacuum to the crank case will help pull excess crap out.

At least that's what the PCV proponets say. Correct?

There have been threads on the HAMB that say the correct thing to do IS add a PCV system.

I'm about to do add a PCV to a flathead I'm building and up till now have been convinced this is the right thing to do.

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There are multiple reasons for the sludge that forms in a flathead. Poor oil drain back, poor oil filtration, and poor ventilation are just a few. I'd really like to hear from people who changed everything else except the PCV system to see what effect it really has over the general cleanliness of the motor. I mean if a guy has a good air filter on his car, full-flow oil filter, good passive crank-case ventilation, good modern oil that's changed regularly and good 180 degree thermostats, does he need a pcv to keep his engine clean? I ran a SBC and Fe like this for years with no sludge build-up.

Just a thought...

 

Here are a flathead links that I have save in my favorites.
http://www.roadsters.com/flathead/#Src
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_home.htm
http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/flathead.htm

 

Another problem: readily available pistons and rings for flatheads are primitive, not like modern narrow rings and pistons ground to expand round. More blowby unless you use special order custom stuff. Probably true of everything before the sixties, when ring designs greatly improved.

 

Time for me to ask a question.

Mike Davidson (Austrailian flathead guru) mentions that with only THREE main bearings in a flathead; he believes that the use of a HARMONIC BALANCER on the front end of the crankshaft will improve the performance of the engine.

The stock pully on flatheads DOES absorb some vibration, (because of it's mass) but when an aluminum blower pully is grafted on the stock pully, (reducing the mass by about 60%) WOULD A HARMONIC BALANCER HELP??

Anyone had/have experience with Harmonic Balancers on a flathead?

 

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One "tale" that I have always wondered about is, the PLACING OF A BIG WASHER in the upper radiator hose. The "therory" was it would "slow down the circulation of coolant" and there by make the engine run cooler.

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ive heard this and "knock off every other water pump vane". this seams like a bit much for me. what do you guys say? does the water move to fast to cool in a flathead? ive also seen a flathead savy NASCAR engine builder put rods inside the flathead block to slow down the water.

 

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PLACING OF A BIG WASHER in the upper radiator hose

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I think this stems from the early thermostats sticking & clogging. I've always heard a washer with a 5/8" hole. There may be some validity to this one in some applications. If I could get thermostats working though, I'd take thermostats any day of the week. 180* should work well.

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knock of every other water pump vane

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I think this comes from the old racing days when the guys were running constant high rpms. Otherwise, I say leave your pumps alone - upgrade to modern bearings & seals (maybe impeller from Skip Haney), but don't do this for a street car.

 

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PLACING OF A BIG WASHER in the upper radiator hose

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I think this stems from the early thermostats sticking & clogging. I've always heard a washer with a 5/8" hole. There may be some validity to this one in some applications. If I could get thermostats working though, I'd take thermostats any day of the week. 180* should work well.

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Yeah, the washer deal has to do with not running thermostats. At least in my limited experience. I've run this full experiment on a former flathead.

First I ran with no thermostats at all. My stupid thinking (but still part of the experiment) was to get as much water flowing as possible, thinking this was a water cooled engine, so lets let more water flow. Couple things wrong with this thinking.

1. We are not dealing with water cooled engines. No, I'm not lost in a VW or Corvair world. AIR cools the engine, water just carries the heat to somewhere with better air flow and surface area, like the front of the car and the radiator. I was too dumb to realize this and then realized this:

2. Water that is allowed to sit in the radiator longer is allowed to hang out where the cooling air and greater surface area is, so the car runs cooler.

With no thermostats or washers, the engine ran hot as hell. I then put the washers in (well I took thermostats and cut the housing out, leaving basically a washer) and the engine ran cooler.

In the end I just ran the 180 Deg. thermostats and all was fine. A rebuild on my radiator did wonders too.

 

So... everyone all in on flathead "Q & A's?"
BTTT