1952-59 Ford my 4.6 dohc powered 57 Custom, aka, doing it the easy way

Good report, as far as the horn goes I thought it was grounding out, sounds like more digging

 

I've now got two electrical problems to figure out...I guess this is why we do alot of test driving. Today for the first time, I had a starting issue. I drove it for a half hour and stopped for coffee, when I got back in the car, I couldn't get any solenoid/starter engagement at all. No clicking, nothing. After checking stuff out for 15 minutes or so, it kicked in and started right up. Drove it home and checked the starting again. same thing...nothing. Let it sit for 1/2 hour and it kicked right over. I took it out for a drive later just to check for consistency and same thing...no starter/solenoid engagement when hot, kicked right in 1/2 hour later. Drove it into the garage, shut it off and retried, and it kicked right over. So, whatever is going on is happening when the car is in normal operating temps. (it is not overheating).
I replaced the starter/solenoid back when I wired up the car last year. I know this rebuilt stuff isn't always good. I don't know if ignition switches can heat up? It's about the only thing in the starting circuit that's old (oem 96 Mustang steering colum with original key and ignition switches). Tomorrow I'll get under there and check the wiring/grounds connections at the starter.

 

Ignition switches can overheat, do all the accessories illuminate when it's in the on position? , retrace your last steps, charging system, battery, all your electric problems seemed to have started last week with your 17 volts, just that ,can overcharge and dry out a battery.

 

I would go for a made in the US heavy duty solenoid. Does the exhaust p*** close to it?

 

I'll check the battery voltage today. It's an Optima, btw. Everything seems to be normal with the key in the on position, and when the starter does engage, it is not sluggish at all.
The exhaust is less than a few inches from the solenoid. Thanks...that got me thinking........maybe a heat shield is in order as well. I may see if I can stuff a temperary heat shield down there to see if changes anything. I'll do that today and also check the ignition switch for heat buildup after I get back.

 

Do one thing at a time. Make up a quick heat shield, even chimney flashing would work. If you can keep it dry, try placing a cold pack around the back of the ignition switch to see if cooling it off helps. Is it a stock '57 switch or something that goes with the 4.6?

 

The ignition switch is 'the 96 Mustang oem switch that was on the steering column. The Ron Francis Express kit made for my car was supplied with a new prewired connector and has been working fine for a year, so no actual wiring issues, just maybe the old switch going bad. I have a spare (old)ignition switch that was on a second steering column I had. I may swap that out to see. It's a plug in connector and 2 screws for the switch readily accesible...at least for a younger person, lol
It may be a few days before I can get to it. We've got guests coming to town Wednesday...got to get house cleaned! UGH!!
Yesterday I did stuff a woven 1/2 thick soft welding shield between the solenoid and the exhaust, and took it for a ride. No effect...wouldn't engage upon return, did 1/2 hour later.

 

You my have to put a hot start set up on it

 

By hot start setup, you mean the remote solenoid w/ a frame or firewall mount, like old school? I picked up a new solenoid today and I'll put that in, if it doesn't resolve the issue or starts reoccuring down the road, I'll try the remote. If I remember correctly, the oem Lincoln cat. converter that came right off the exhaust manifolds had heat shields buit in. However, I did run quite a while without having this issue, so who knows?

 

Yes that;s what i was talking about i have used that set up on sum of my car's in the past worked will

 

This is what I do. A carry over from my stock cars days. I never had any hot-start issues after adding the solenoid on the firewall.

 

How is the wiring done on that? Walk me thru it if you would. The starter mounted solenoid is obviously kept in place, so the firewall solenoid is activating the starter mounted solenoid? I'm trying to figure this out in my head, lol, not doing so well! Solenoids are basically relays, are they not?...

 

Mad Electrical sells a setup.






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Catalog Ordering & Shipping Electrical Tech Work Shop Tips About M.A.D.

part # # ST-1 $29.95



It fits GM systems from 1955-1994
and it's helpful with "Mini-Starters" too.


START'M UP kit
REMOTE STARTER SOLENOID

kit for GM systems(We have been making this kit since 1985)


The advantages of this remote starter solenoid system are obvious.

please scroll down


After the START'M UP kit has been installed, the only cable routed to the starter is the large cable, and it will be "electrically dead," except for during engine cranking. (No more "live" positive battery cable routed down to the starter, where it might become shorted.)

No longer will those small wires be routed to the starter–where they are often very difficult to work with. No more small starter wires burned by the exhaust system on V-8 and V-6 applications. (The small wires will be re-routed to the new, remote, solenoid, supplied in the kit.)

Connection of a mechanic's remote starter ****on (with alligator clips and wires) will be easy. It's a very useful feature for engine service work, which requires "bumping" the starter. Examples of such use is adjusting valves, finding timing marks, testing compression, and installing distributors.

The POSITIVE battery cable will be connected to a large stud at one side of the new solenoid, which provides a great place for connecting accessories directly to battery positive power. It's much neater and more reliable to connect wires here than directly to the battery posts, where they are subject to corrosion and look messy. Wires that may be connected here might be; the alternator to battery "charging wire," the dash area "main power-up wire," and wires to relays. (Relays for electric radiator fans, headlights, fuel pumps, and other accessories.)

GM HOT START PROBLEMS

There are two independent categories of hot start problems with the GM DELCO built starting system.

(1) Nothing happens when the key is turned to "START"–although the headlights will burn brightly, and the rest of the electrical system is fine. The problem most often occurs in hot weather, and with the engine warmed up, after about a ten-minute stop. (Heat increases resistance at wiring and electrical parts.)

This is the type of problem, which will be cured with installation of the START'M UP kit. The problem occurs because the large solenoid on the GM starter draws 40 to 50 amps at the moment the key is turned to "START." And that large amount of current must flow through a very lengthy circuit, from the battery to the dash area. Through dash wiring and switches, back out through the under-hood wiring, finally to the starter.

The START'M UP kit will reduce current flow through the lengthy circuit to only 2 amps–then the system will work fine.

(2) SLOW CRANKING, a gr-r-runt, gr-r-runt. This kit won't fix it! You'll need to work with ignition timing, battery cables, the starter, and the rest of the system.

 

The above kit is what you want and has the jumper clip for the starter. I used a wire and 2 lugs. My main hot feed wire that powers the car goes through the Ford solenoid. If you want I can take a look at it later.

 

update. I got my horn issue fixed. Turns out it was the clockspring ribbon electrical coil behind the steering wheel. It apparently was shorting out the ground. Probably had some non visible damage done from a deployed airbag in the donor car. Found a replacement in a Mustang in the local upull it that did not have an exploded airbag. 5 bucks and a few hours. New one was 90 bucks ebay, and I wasn't 100% sure it was the problem. I'm sure if I had spent the money for a new one, it would have turned out to be something else, lol.
For the hot start issue, I picked up a starter mounted solenoid, and was also looking at the remote units similar to the ones you guys were suggesting above. I pulled that one out of the box along with an instruction sheet that started with
"DO NOT USE THIS SOLENOID ON CARS WITH ON BOARD COMPUTERS". wth? more research needed..... Computer equipt cars(like mine) require a solenoid with supression diodes, or damage will result to the computer.. I checked Jegs and summit, and found notations on some of their solenoids that said they did not have supression diodes. Problem is, I can't find one that does. seems like we have a non compatible combination here...new school= computer, old school = remote solenoid. I'm wondering why they would have even made a remote solenoid with suppression diodes since the remote solenoids were primarily replaced by starter mounted ones before computers even came into the picture.
This is the kind of problem/question that drives me nuts knowing I can't post it on the main board with so many eletronic/electrical gurus out there.

 

I just got a message from a Hamb member who owns the starter/alternator shophere in town that rebuilt my alternator last week. Small world! He saw a post I did somewhere and recognized the car. He is going to find a remote solenoid for me that has the suppression diodes.....said he is pretty sure they are available. Cool...save me some research if he can find one.

 

Cool.

 

He found a solenoid with suppression diodes, so I had him order it. Should be here by thurs. if I need it. In the meantime, my hot start issue went to a no start issue. That's got me thinking maybe the solenoid/starter had some issues that were aggravated by the heat, and now those issues have gotten worse. I was going to have my friend replace the starter mounted solenoid in his shop...he has a lift...but I decided to give it a shot since the car was dead in my driveway. So far this old body isn't doing well with it. I tried removing the solenoid leaving the starter in the car, which I did, but can't get the new one in. I spent hours yesterday trying to manuver under the car (up on jackstands) to get at the starter. I've got two of the three bolts out, but can't get to the third. I'll give it another shot when the sun comes up and things start warming up a bit. I had replaced this starter once, but it was before the front sheetmetal was on and I was able to get to that top bolt from the front and several feet of extensions.

 

Extensions and a universal... go fish! To install the starter in my car, I dropped the idler arm off the frame and lifted the p***enger side off the mount by a couple of inches.

 

This dam starter is so hard to get off I decided to pull the motorcraft starter off the spare 4.6dohc engine and have it rebuilt by the local starter shop. I'm not going to put the parts store rebuilt one back in it. I finally figured out how to get to the last bolt, but I need to have a second pair of hands up front near the lower radiator where the ratchet is attached to two feet of extensions while I'm back at the starter feeling the socket onto the bolt that I can't see. The starter shop is going to have the starter rebuilt tomorrow, so I'll pick it up and try to find a helper, pull the old one off and install the new one. I'm sure hoping I can get all these bugs worked out by next week for my April 1 cruise to Oklahoma....starting to get a little stressed.

 

Well, that stress is gone with a new one taking it's place. I had to cancel the little cruise we had set up.
The hot start issue I had may have been something else entirely or combined with another issue. That other issue resulted in me doing some big time body damage to the '57 yesterday, as well as damage to a commercial building.. I'm just sick over it.
I thought about saying nothing in light of a thread that ran on the main board here a year or so ago, but maybe others will learn from my mistake.
Many of you may have read the thread going where a guy had won a trophy for his racecar at a major car show, and was asked to start the engine inside a building. I don't remember exact details, but he apparently reached into the car and fired it up, but the neutral switch either wasn't there or malfunctioned, and the car took off unmanned doing some serious damage to another show car.
I thought about not posting this because the Hamb being the Hamb, there were pages and pages of members raking this guy over the coals. Well, yesterday I got to get first hand knowledge of what he felt like.
Fortunately, nobody was injured. I came within a split second of getting my legs crushed in the door when the car sideswiped the building door frame/overhead door track pancaking/denting/gouging the side from the front fender almost all the way back. I never had time to close the door...the building slammed it shut for me just as I got my feet in. I slammed on the brakes keeping the car from going into a 4 lane busy street and or hitting trucks outside the car wash being dried off.
My starting problem that I thought I had resolved with the new starter/solenoid, at least now is a shifting mechanism that is not in the gear the indicator says it is. It may be in the ******...I won't know for a while....I've got to walk away from it for some time. The stupid part on my behalf....basically the car was started with me testing / jumping the neutral switch when I was on the outside of it and the ****** was actually in gear, not park as the shifter position and detents indicated.

 

That just ****s. I think we've all had experience doing things we wish we could redo. At least no damage to anyone.
I've got a 56 F100 that I used to have trouble starting once in a while, my fix was to jump the solenoid with the key on to start it. After work one day, it wouldn't start so I did the jump start. The reason it wouldn't start was because it was in gear. Luckily for me, it was up against the parking bumper and didn't go anywhere.

 

Bummer. I'm glad to hear you or no one else was hurt. Hopefully you can get everything back to normal soon.

 

I'm the last guy to join in on beating someone up. I see how that goes and not one of us is perfect.

I did a similar thing when I was 19, bumping the starter on a company truck trying to move it up a foot or so in the shop. We always left them in gear and many of us did the same thing more than once without the unexpected happening.

Cured me of ever doing that again.. never imagined it would fully start. I got dragged and bruised my arm badly. Minor damage to the truck and it really didn't hit anything major.

Time to start gathering parts, when you're ready. I got nothing for a '57 though.

 

Wow, so sorry for the damage to the 57. You will overcome. Many of us (if not most) have had similar experiences. I certainly have come very close to serious damage but have been lucky to have it be mostly minor. Take a break then get back after it.

 

That's terrible, after all that hard work, I would puke if that happened to me or atleast cry. When your ready to start body work, post any needed parts on the WANTED thread, I'm sure we all can get you hooked up with what you need

 

Parts can be replaced and paint re-sprayed. The important part was that you and those around you are OK!

Now, just thinking out loud here Tex, shouldn't this harrowing tale go in that "I can't believe I did that" thread you started??

 

I will probably have the car repaired at a body shop. I have a friend who owns a shop that does street rod builds and body and paint the right way. He has been my mentor and go-to guy over the years when I needed advise on how to do something the right way. I'll be 70 later this year...the thoughts of months of bodywork just doesn't appeal to me any more. So, I'm probably going to let him do the repair as long as he doesn't have any major builds going on in his shop that'll cause it to be in his shop for months and months. The downside to that is I won't be able to use the "I did everything" anymore.
I need him to look at the damage, and we'll figure out if the door can be repaired. the fender and rear quarter can be. My newly chromed bumper is will need to be rechromed. The mirror and door handle are both repops, so no replacement issue there. The rear fender side trim was bent, but not badly, so is probably fixable, but Zapoto has already told me he has one if needed.
I tried to call Grundy yesterday, but they were closed for Easter/ Good Friday. I'll let you guys know how they handle it.
Update...I was just offered a good door skin for it from a '57 Forum member. I'll need to pick it up in Dallas, but I can do that. I love forums!!

 

Yep probably should have, LOL

Guys, thanks for all the positive and understanding comments...much appreciated.

 

Look forward to seeing how Grundy handles this. I have them also. Never had a claim though.