You got that right!!!!! It would of been stunning sitting in that building showing that gorgeous gold off.
Hey Axle... You are right all this Sam & Jerry stuff needs to be brought out to the masses and I my friend will be making some calls TODAY!!!!!! (remember when Jimmi Conway chokes Maury with the phone cord and say's " TODAY!!!!!!!" )
I think you may be stepping on Riks toes here. He is already working on bringing it to the attention of the masses. Please don't back door him with the info he helped bring to light. And just for the record, I'd like to remind people that I am the person who located the EMPTY photo album, and all the individual chop sequence photos scattered throughout a box full of photos (loaned from John) separately, realized they all belonged together and re-assembled the album and handed it back to John and let him know what it was, and how important it was.
It definitley appears as though Jerry's car hit the streets first and realistically even if Sam started chopping his before Jerry brought his car in (which is very possible and may be the reason George says Sam's was chopped first) a paying customer's job is going to be put before a personal ride every time. The only reason I would think that Sam had already started his own car is the fact that the slanted B pillars on Jerry's car seem to be a progression in design for Sam and he was trying something new that he had not done on his own car.
Dont forget that Jerry worked at Barrris shop during this time. Also you can clearly see that Jerry's cut was done in a very early style of chopping just like Rik brought up.
Well I guess you didnt let him know that the pics in the album were not his dads car because at the panel discussion he still thought that those were of his dads merc. As far as stepping on Riks toes ...... I dont think so. I put in plenty of research to get to the truth of this matter especially by spending the time talking to Jerry.I would never try to say I discovered all this myself.Rik has done the most since he has posted all these great pics up for us to see.Rik and I were talking about this in sacramento and we have been talking about this ever since. So anyone I contact will be contacting Rik to discuss this history.I dont pull no bullshit like backdooring anybody.
Dont worry Cleatus, I already sent Rik a msg to let him know who I was going to call and I want to see what he thinks about it.I wont be making any moves without letting Rik know.
Actually I DID tell John that it was actually the Quesnel Merc and not Sam's, but John is really only interested in Sam (understandably) and the fact that for so many years some of those photos had been credited as being Sam working on his own car I guess made it difficult for him to accept (or believe). John is not really a "car guy" so some of the details in the photos that prove it is actually Jerry's car were lost on him - I cannot control what John believes.
Well Cleastus , you are very responsible for this change in kustom history if you located the photos and arranged them to be brought to sacramento. Thank you.
I would assume even as an employee there would be some cost involved to working on your own car unless it was all done after hours (given all the outside shots seem to be during the day time I assume this was not the case) where as I would think Sam worked on his stuff almost entirely after hours or during slow times. Perhaps this is also why the build of Jerry's car seems to be better documented as people like Marcia had access to the shop during business hours but not after hours when Sam was working on his car. I wouldn't expect the chop to be done any other way. I would think it would almost have to have been being done fairly simultaniously to Sam's car. I think the non rounded hood corners on the two cars also points to a similar time frame of construction as almost every notable Merc that left the shop after these two had rounded corners.
If you think Sam's was just as early as Jerry's , what do make of George using Jerry's merc for the popular Science article instead of using his own brothers?? That magazine is the earliest documented pics we have of a chopped 49 merc in a publication.
Cleatus, we're not stepping on anyones toes here. Jeff Neppl and i are as passionate about this whole Merc thing as Rik is.
I definitley think Jerry's was done first, no doubt in my mind, I just think they were probably working on both cars at the same time. Sam's car did have more work done to it and again was probably being worked on a lot less than Jerry's if he was indeed paying for the work. My thinking is if Jerry actually started his chop at home and was working at Barris' so he knew Sam was working on his at the same time so he took it in to have him help do the work. They seem to have been clearly working on it during business hours so I assume Jerry was a paying customer and his work would definitley have taken presidence over Sam's. It was done (at least in primer) first so George used it in the article. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
Very valid Jeff ! Remember, Sams car has 51 Ford grille surround pieces used to fabricate the grille . Also, Sams Merc's famous picture in the snow was in Motor Trend - late 1951. The public will have to time frame everything in front of them, then use all of our own best judgement.
For me most one of the most compelling things that makes me believe that Sam at least started his chop first is the fact that it has been said that he drove his new car around unchopped until he figured out how to chop it. If he had already done Jerry's car this makes no sense and it seems like a fairly obscure thing to add to a story to embelish it.
Would a '51 grill piece not have been available in '50 when the car was released? I still don't doubt that Jerry's car was finished first I just find it hard to believe that Sam wasn't working on his at the same time.
George claims that they started chopping the merc right after they got it.I dont believe that Sam was driving his car around for a while before cutting it,I think there would have been photos of Sam next to his new mercury.
Perhaps somebody should ask the people at Brizio's if they could see if the rear quarter windows beeing cut out completely on Sam's Merc. They have seen the car in bare metal and it most likely would have been easy to see if the tops of those side windows where completely removed or not. The photos that Marcia Campbell took show how Sam cut out the top of the rear side windows to seperate them from the top. A technique used on 41-48 Fords to get the rear to flow perfectly. The car in these photos is Jerry's Merc for sure. If Sam's Merc has no cuts here.. then we can be sure Sam's Merc was done after Jerry's. He learned from Jerry's Merc, and knew now those cuts where not needed. So somebody has any contacts at Brizio's?
Just got off the phone with Jerry!!!! It has been over a year since I talked to him.I thought I offended him when I was asking all the questions but he said he was getting 10 calls a day from different people wanting to talk about the merc.He told me he wasnt mad at me at all he just was tired of the calls. So I told him about the photos that were presented at sacraramento and he was very happy. He said he remembered Marcia taking pics all the time.He was talking about how great of a guy Sam was and how much fun they had chopping his merc.He was telling me about the trophies he was winning when the car was in white primer and it called known as the "White Ghost". I wanted bring up the 51 plates BUT I didnt want to push my luck.He was very cool like he was before mostly talking about dragracing and Bonneville. Here is the best part......... He is coming down next month and he gave me his cell # to call him on. I asked about meeting him for dinner or lunch and he agreed to it!!!!!!! He was very happy to find out that we are trying to prove that his car was chopped first but not to excited. He said " It's alright, Sam knew and I know the order of the cars." George also know's but he will never admit it...... George dont like Jerry at all. So if all goes well I will finally get to meet the man himself. What a great phonecall
I tried looking at the bare metal picture in TRJ issue 35 but it is hard to tell from them. The top has definitley been leaded all along the top of the rear side window and completely around across the back but it could just be for the drip rail removal. Tough to say from those pictures.
Maybe you never know with George. He claims in his books that Sam drove it around first to figure out how to chop it. Same guy two different stories so who knows one of them has to be true.
No one is doubting any passion here and the questions and points being brought up are important pieces of figuring out the history. My comment about stepping on toes has to do with an intent to put the info in front of another journalist, without consideration that much of what you are looking at is already in the proper hands and wouldn't have even been in front of you without the people who you MAY be stepping on the toes thereof having shared it with you. But, I guess that is the nature of the web then. I know you guys are passionate and want to make sure the correct info gets out. That is all good.
Your documentation is superb Rik. that was a joy to read and the photography was excellent. Thank you.
Yes, Steve Lord is a good pal of mine. I'd consider Roy a pal as well. Tell me exactly what you want me to ask them and I'll call. Daryle Hollenbeck would probably know as well as he was the one to paint the Merc.
The only problem with that theory is that they used the same technique (cutting the top of the rear quater windows right off) on Frank Sonzogni's car which was definitely built after Sam's so it appears they continued to do them that way for a while so it wouldn't really give a time frame. In fact if they are not cut off it may indicate that Sam's car was done first and they decided it was easier to cut them off completely when they did Jerry's.
hmmm Never noticed it untill now... Down the drain with that theory. Ok no need to call Brizio. Sonzogni Merc. chop
So who is around today who could be interviewed to figure this out... Jerry Quesnel, George Barris, and who else? Is Frank Soznogi (sp?) still around? Seems if everyone asked them key questions, you'd be able to compare all the responses and figure it out. I bet asking Jerry in person would work better than over the phone... My questions would be... 1) When did Jerry buy his car, and when did Sam buy his? 2) Was Jerry chopping his at home the whole time or at the shop? 3) Did Sam do his car at night or during shop time? 4) Did George or Sam take pics of Sam's chop? If so then one would assume that they would use those pics if that was the first chop right. If G/S did take pics, then one would assume that S/G published the first set of pics for that article, which would be Jerry's car. 5) Who's car was first driven on the street, and also showed, once it was chopped? This is regardless of being in primer. This is great stuff. I wish I could have seen the show but I had to focus on my business at the time.
A lot of your questions you listed have already been answered thru out this thread. Just ask your self why would George Barris use a freshly done white primered car for a article that ran in Popular Science magazine if his brothers car was done before Jerry's ???? Why would George claim all those photos of them working on the car were Sam's merc when we all know that it was indeed Jerry's car ?? This mystery isnt such a mystery anymore. Jerry's car was out winning trophies while it was in white primer and crushing the pavement while Sam's car was being built.Do you really believe that George just happen to forget to shoot pics of Sams car being built if it was the first one of it's kind. Conclusion....... Sams was first to be painted and perfected but Jerry was already out cracking necks on the street with the white Ghost .
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