The '30's Euro look could well be a winner, but personally I'd like to see the hobby look at earlier works. The Hop Up annuals have recently been featuring a few early T's such as those above this post. They are ****in' knock-out in my book. At this years Nostalgia Nats in the UK this turned up on the Sunday. It absolutely took my breathe away. I reckon rodding could do a lot worse than look at even earlier cars than we do now.
It trashed it's trans on it's first run, so no time available. But hey, he was out there, having a ball.
Artiki, Thought you'd like this photo of a Mercer Raceabout with full road equipment. Got a ride in one two years ago, next best thing to driving one.
I think Surf Monkey's example was the closest to what I would build. It would take some major metalwork and engineering to make all of the mods though. The Mercedes have a long nose - like a 60's rail job. The visual weight is at least 60/40. and the belt-line is low. They also have a very small appearing cabin space (again like the dragsters). So we'd have to section a good 5 inches out of the roadster first. Then shorten the car in the door area a little. Roll the edges of the doors up and over (shutting out some of the ****pit). A couple of those race inspired headrest blisters that flow down the back of the trunk area. Next the cowl would be lengthened a few inches and the hood *** well to help make the blend more natural. I am guessing a tube frame would be easier to build from scratch than modifying the stocker. Top it of with the custom nose and some neat tires/rims and we are making progress........ O' course I'd need a bunch more talent and the time to match, but it could be done. The upside is that you could still call it a hot rod Ford and run a flattie if you want the sound there. It would be uncomfortable probably (cramped at least)and ride like a lumberwagon, but hey doesn't every racecar? You'll have to scroll up and down to compare...
Be very careful with the details of a venture down this style road, I just thought what a stretched coupe with pontoon fenders would look like if not careful and "The Dobie Gillis Special" came to mind...
.........this "project" requires a Monster Garage type team build. Roth, Cole, Tardell, that old gentleman that does the metal work on the Boyd cars and throw in Clark Bates to keep it "real." .......good luck with the back Ryan. That ****s!
All I did was extend the front end behind the front wheels about 8", chopped the top about 3" in the 4" in the back, removed the front turn signals and add skirts. If you squint, it's a mini 50 Merc Kustom. Add a number to the door and go racing.
I hope everyone knows that the "Dobie Gillis Car" is the Art Christman Bonneville car after Barris got it. It is restored to its racing look now.
[ QUOTE ] I hope everyone knows that the "Dobie Gillis Car" is the Art Christman Bonneville car after Barris got it. It is restored to its racing look now. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, we know. I was only making that point because it would be really easy to go from the tasteful streamlined lines of the '30s race cars pictured to something an over the hill movie star might think is just the glitzy thing to get rediscovered on Hollywood Blvd. That's all. Personally I think "S****e" is real close to being that far over the top into that glitz factor. The only thing saving it is the fairly plain and traditional black & white T & R inside.
Thank you, Ryan, for beginning one of the more interesting and important threads on the HAMB in recent weeks. Like most rodders my age who grew up on the West Coast my hot-rodding experiences and interests are rather broad. Lakes and drag racing were only part of the scene, and organized cruise nights and weekend-long events where rodders gather to park and do nothing other than eat, drink, and strike a pose appropriate to their niche in the game werent even on our mental radar. We were far too busy experiencing the many iterations of hot rod compe***ion first hand, either as spectators or participants. We watched the midgets on the boardtrack in the Rose Bowl and on dirt at Carrell Speedway. We cheered the track roadsters at Western Speedway, Ascot, Balboa Stadium, and Saugus. Palm Springs, Torrey Pines, Pomona, Santa Barbara, Hansen Dam, Paramount Ranch, Willow Springs, and Riverside kept us interested and excited in automobile and motorcycle road racing. And if we had any energy or time left over it might be spent at Marine Stadium in Long Beach where the hot rods had no wheels but were hot rods nonetheless. And, of course, we drag raced and went to the lakes. (The scene at that time is no better presented in a single do***ent than it is in Mark Mortons HOP UP: The First Twelve Issues.) In time wed find one or more of these hot-rod expressions to participate in ourselves, and while that might curtail some of our interest in the other forms, they werent completely cast aside; we still enjoyed those forms we werent actively competing in. With that kind of exposure its natural for me to be interested in much more than the very narrow focus of hot rodding today. As much as I love the traditional straight-line coupes and roadsters of the 40s and 50s, the current concentration on that form, to the near exclusion of all other expressions, stifles the growth and development of hot rodding other than for style and image . . . and not all of that is positive. Im surprised that there hasnt been serious interest in building streetable sports racers like those of the 50s, cars like the Baldwin Special, the Cannon Special, the early versions of Ol Yaller, Ken Miles MG special (with a modern four-banger), and Duff Livingstons T roadster and Ak Millers Caballo. (Duffs roadster does live again, restored to its late 50s setup and is still able to kick European pricey sporty car **** in vintage racing. Caballo was fully cannibalized early on, but was expertly recreated by Vern Tardel about 15 years ago to the extent that everyone now thinks its the original.) Id very much like to see something long-term come of this thread, Ryan, maybe an occasional week of Sports Racer Tech, with all interested parties sharing their original ideas as well as those from the past. Thanks for the thread. Duff's TIHSEPA II Caballo trailing an Allard Upgraded old sports racer
[ QUOTE ] Im surprised that there hasnt been serious interest in building streetable sports racers like those of the 50s, cars like the Baldwin Special, the Cannon Special, the early versions of Ol Yaller, Ken Miles MG special (with a modern four-banger), and Duff Livingstons T roadster and Ak Millers Caballo. [/ QUOTE ] I am not... I equally love Road track racers and Hot Rods, so I have friends in both groups. Not only does there seem to be very little comunication between the two groups, it seems to go deeper than that. As far as ridiculing each others sport and outright hostillity... As both racing forms got more spe******ed, the in beween area fell away... It used to be you could take a Road Track car to a Drag race to test it ( Max Balchowski did it...) or a Drag car to Bonneville , and nobody got offended. (Although I did see a guy unload his Ford GT40 at Bonneville on his way back from Monterey once, he was going to change LSR Racing as we know it, that was hilairious...) The cars you mentioned are sort of lost in the middle and that is to bad. Maybe it is up to us to start building cars like that again...
I'm REALLY enjoying this post. Especially the track roadster and road race specials. Here's a recent pick of Phil Payne's Willis Baldwin Special at the Pebble Beach Concours: I still think think one of the prettiest flathead (well...Ardun) sports racers is the Norwegian(!) one posted by AV8 Rider about a year ago. Would love to see more pics of that (Maserati grill and all). Here's a close up. (They're ALL close ups.) (Sorry about the pic size) Beautiful workmanship. Here's the entire thread (pictures still intact!) for those who may have missed it. And about the long purposeful look with wheel fairings, don't forget Frank Lockhart's 1928 LSR Stutz Black Hawk Special. Talk about looking purposeful!!! Here's a pic of the replica: And, despite the Stutz sponsor name, the car was Miller engined. Frank took TWO miller I-8's and made a (I think) V-16. Laminar(!) flow radiator on the hood sides. Like the later Supermarine Schneider Trophy seaplane racers. Reached over 200 mph before his second (fatal) crash.
metalshapes -- Your view and experiences with each of the groups, hot rods and sports racers, isn't even close to mine. I'm guessing you are probably a lot younger than I and most of the folks I hang out with. In 1997 I took a p*** on Speed Week (none in our crowd was running a car that year), and spent the time at the Monterey Historic Races. I was there from Wednesday on through the weekend, hanging out with a hot-rodding pal who lived in Carmel. I drove my roadster down from Santa Rosa and it was our only transportation for the week, day and night. Imagine that, a traditional flathead-powered AV8 mingling with all those high-zoot vintage sports cars. Truth to tell, the little blue roadster was treated like the second coming! By the time I headed back to Santa Rosa on Sunday evening I was worn out from responding to all the thumbs-up attaboys, waves, flashed headlights, and shouts of approval that were part of any excursion we made out onto the roads and streets of the Monterey penninsula during the week. I was ho**** from talking about the car and the old days and how much we all missed them! At the track, Laguna Seca, I had no special parking permit, but I couldn't have parked in a regular lot if my life depended on it. Each time a traffic monitor spotted the little hot rod in a traffic queue I was directed into a special lane and eventually herded into a very special parking area, close to the track, where I was ***ured that my car would be well looked after. So much for "outright hostility" toward hot rods from the vintage sporty car crowd. My primarly hot-rodding pals of my age group feel as warm and charitable toward sporty cars as those folks do toward us. If there is a problem with fear and loathing from either side it has to come from the young crowd. That's not our scene. The type of cars I mentioned need not be lost in the middle. They are simple, affordable, core road-racing hot rods that can be built as affordably today as they were back then. You're right, it is up to us to start building cars like that again -- no "maybes" about it!
SlowLearner -- Here's my favorite Frank Lockhart Miller, the one in which Lockhart's improvements were incorporated, tested, and proven. And just in case you want to build an accurate copy of the frame and body, here's a Leo Goosen drawing that will get you most of the way home.
some thing along this line would be fun ,a little roadster coupe ,or section it , this car is quite rare but gives a look of a roadster 1937 English Ford 7W "Ten" Tourer, dig those doors ,seems to me that would need a photo shop session ,put them on a 35 to 37 convert, i agree with your comments but yet don't know at what point i can think of a formed body ,or cutting up a existing model to change it is considered the same thing?
Thanks AV8. Also, may I submit for the true metalsmiths, some serious (pre-war) italian body work. The 1938 Alfa Corsa was a fiercely fast car, and (IMHO) absolutely the high point of the prewar roadster concept. Before all the (little) barchettas. and another and the tail WOW!! Here's a link to more pics. Is this (backyard) doable?? I'd like to think so. Keith
WOW! That is gorgeous. Regarding early cars such as the one AV8 Mike posted: My favorite styling detail is the cowl, and how it is radiused to essentially house the steering wheel. Built for a purpose, but aesthetically beautiful in the end. I would love to build a car in this style, but would want to share the fun with a p***enger. I have seen variations on two-seater versions. I don't know much about early racing but I'm ***uming that the two-seaters were perhaps for rally events where a navagator was used? Please educate me, and above all, post some pictures if you have examples. How about staggered seating or inline, one in front of the other?
SlowLearner, Haring -- Thought you might enjoy this SWB (called just "short" at the time) 8C 2900 spyder. This is a very do-able car with 'gl*** fenders, nose, and tail . . . even better in aluminum. Just imagine some of the simple tube-frame ch***is you could wrap with this gorgeous body work . . .
[ QUOTE ] metalshapes -- Your view and experiences with each of the groups, hot rods and sports racers, isn't even close to mine. I'm guessing you are probably a lot younger than I and most of the folks I hang out with. [/ QUOTE ] You are half right... I am younger than you, but the people I hang out with are my age, younger than me and some of them are probably your senior by quite a bit... Besides, the people I hang out with are not the people I was talking about necissarily... When I spent a lot of time on the European road tracks pitting and wrenching on Vintage Race Cars, I felt like I had to defend myself for loving Hot Rods. And the treatment I got when I tried to talk about doing a couple of test runs at a "run what you brung/friday night drag event" with one of my Road Track cars, did not make me believe these people were any more openminded. If your experiences are different, that's great. That makes me hopefull that things are improving, or that my experiences were a fluke... So lets start building these cars...
Whilst I tend to think the following are 'bridges' between themes, they are all true pioneers, and my inspiration for my current build Arpu..... (thanks to Don and AV8 for the images via the HAMB) Cheers, Drewfus
[ QUOTE ] some thing along this line would be fun ,a little roadster coupe ,or section it , this car is quite rare but gives a look of a roadster 1937 English Ford 7W "Ten" Tourer, dig those doors ,seems to me that would need a photo shop session ,put them on a 35 to 37 convert, i agree with your comments but yet don't know at what point i can think of a formed body ,or cutting up a existing model to change it is considered the same thing? [/ QUOTE ]I grew up to the sound of a flatty, balls out on the water at Marine Stadium and I love that sound. I all so love the sound of a formula one engin as it accelerates out of a turn or a top fuel digger comming off the line.The internal combustion engin may not be vary efficient but it's a thing of beauty. My back allso hurts. I' going to the chiropractor tomorrow. pogo
I aint no pabst blue ribbon boy.......one word....Vern Tardel....keeps the traditional torch burning.....end of story
There was of course another influence shaping those Mercedes Benz racers during the '30s and '40s, it was the idea of Teutonic supremacy. And the truth is, they won in that automotive sense. I think that idea lingers on in the MB psyche, and they're still building superior cars and making the marques they ****ed into their empire better than ever. With few exceptions, American and British cars didn't have that cold hearted scientific look to them. There's a reason they look the way they do, it was a time of war and there's no denying that MB engineers had mandates that were politically thrust on them to create the most menacing vehicles seen thus far. I still like them regardless. I'd still like a Phantom Corsair though.
The Jalopy Journal
