Projects My First Flathead... NOW WHAT?

@roseville carl , I'm hoping to pop the heads and stock intake off if I get some time in the shop this weekend. I'll take a round of pictures of whatever I find (and have).

I'm looking at the link you PM'd me but I haven't dug deep yet. ***uming I have a good block & Stock crank, valves, rods, pistons, etc., What would be your recommendation for taking advantage of the 3x2? I'm already looking to a more aggressive cam.

 

Do you want the 3X2 for performance or looks? You can grow into it. Block the two outside carbs with plates under the carbs and run on the center one. Then you could later put a plate under the center carb and run off of the outside two. Then, if you get enough engine to use it, run on all three (takes a lot of engine!).

 

I'm going for GOES LIKE HELL BUT DIDN'T COST A TON OF CASH right now.

Bear in mind I've already spent about three times what I paid for the base engine on parts. I'm not expecting or attempting a "cheap" build up; I'm just trying to be frugal and get a hot runner with what I spend.

I had been thinking of blocking the center carb and running with two to start if I can get enough *** in the cat.

To recap what I know I've got so far, I've got the 8ba out of an old truck,
Offy triple deuce intake with
3 Holley 8ba carbs
Freshly machined & cleaned EAB heads
39 trans (unknown gearing)

I also pre-ordered Mike Bishop & Vern Tardell's new book on building flatheads but I have no clue when it's actually going to come out and get to me. It says June right now.

 

You could use a cap like that if you only wanted to run one or two carbs. What I was talking about is having all three carbs on the manifold with a thin (not noticeable) plate under the carbs not in use.

 

Yeah but then I'm lugging all the weight of that extra carb around
With this one, I want it to look like what it is, so I don't want to do stuff like that. The finned caps are more appealing to me, even if I have to cap two intakes (which i don't, I'd really rather run at least 2 carbs). I kinda like the de-tuned racer vibe they give me aesthetically.

 

Up to you, but it is fairly common.

 

Oh I know it is, I'm not knocking it, I just want to take anything off that's not being used on this one. I also want to run the aluminum intake, so even if I cap two... at least it's lighter than the stock intake, that's good, right?

 

True, but these weights are not that big a deal on a street car. Lighter is always better, and drag racing it can be a big deal, but on the street not so much.

 

Pix to come but i just got one of the heads off and it looks beautiful. I can see my reflection in the cylinder walls.

 

Beginners luck ran out and I snapped one head bolt.

 

I rotated the crank once I got everything off and could see the valves. Looks like I've only got one stuck valve, which I consider pretty impressive. The whole valley is covered in black sludge, but I haven't found any foreign objects or pieces of non foreign object in anything so far.



There's a bunch of grit and what looks like slag in the water channels though. I expected to find some grit but there are some big bits in there.

The pictures above don't really do justice to how clean everything that was under a gasket looked. I've decided that it may be the best thing to do to send this block out to a machine shop to have it gone over and rebuilt. I'm pretty sure it needs new seats and a valve job at a minimum. I was recommended Jack Lundin at Lundin Machine Co Inc in Burlington, MA by a fella I bought some 39 wheels from this weekend. I hear he's a bit of a Flathead Guru AND he's about a 15 minute drive up the road from me.

Also, here's the bell, flywheel, & clutch that came off. Measured at 11" the distributor internals looked clean too.:

 

Valve Pictures:

 

What you've got there is some of the finest, non-detergent, old time "cosmoline". Do you have access to a 55 gallon drum? If so, dunk that ****er in a bath of K-1 or diesel fuel before you tear it down any more. That gunk is like dog ****. Once it gets on you, it is very hard to get it off.

 

I do not, unfortunately. I was figuring I'd need to scoop as much out as possible and hit it with oven cleaner and/or simple green... Disposal of leftover dirty Diesel would probably be an issue for me. I'm not sure what Id do with it. Will modern detergent oils loosen it up at all?

 

Well, you got to get as much of that out as possible. Imagine if you run detergent oil and all that goop get s suspended, it would clog your oil pick up screen in no time and then you'd be dealing with a seized engine.

Not sure of your plan, but got to clean that out as best as possible. Best thing would be to tear it down, hot tank it at a machine shop. If you do this, I'd would also get it shake and baked too in order to clean out the water p***ages.

Good luck. I've seen some gooped up ones and this one ranks up there. It can be cleaned, it will just take time, a lot of degreaser and some time in the garage.

 

I'm finding it difficult to find places around here to get stuff like that done (Eastern M***achusetts, North Shore area). I got a lead on a guy that runs a hot tank, but haven't found any baking services.

 

Any good maching shop should be able to shake and bake it. This involves heating it to a high temp and blasting it with steel shot. Cleans it right down to the raw casting. Only snag is it will have to bored afterward.

 

Your Simple Green comment caught my eye. Simple Green Crystal is a good degreaser that can be bought by the gallon. It would be interesting to see how it works on sludge. We used it to clean industrial oxygen lines before putting them in service. They must be absolutely clean w/o any residue as anything in the presence of oxygen is fuel. The first big system was cleaned with something like trichloroethane that is a very unhealthy product to use & must be used with great care. We installed a second large system and the oxygen supplier's technical support suggested Simple Green Crystal as the degreaser. This seemed simplistic after using the trichloroethane. We used it with good success.
We built an airplane using Stewart Systems primers and paints that used a degreaser similar to Simple Green Crystal in their product. The SS cleaner was expensive so I bought a gallon of the Simple Green Crystal and it cleaned aluminum squeeky cleaned. We had to degrease the aluminum before etching and the water just sheeted off the aluminum and it was easy to see what was not clean as it beaded.
Simple Green Crystal is sure a lot more people friendly than solvents. It would be interesting to see how SGC would work on sludge. We used it at 10 to 1 with water that was effective for degreasing. I think sludge would need more like 5:1 or stronger.

Here is a link to Simple Green Crystal dilution ratios.
http://simplegreen.com/pdfs/Chart_EN-US_IndustrialUsesAndDilutions.pdfer.

I see Home Depot stock SGC. I would like to know your success with Simple Green.
all the best,
Glenn

 

No easy way. Get your rubber gloves on and have at it. Gotta get it torn down.

 

Looks like Crystal SG is only available in large quan***y order, but Simple Green HD I can pick up at Home Despot. I'm thinking it's a civilian type product though and not on the level of the crystal (seems to suggest a 1:3 ratio vs an upper limit of 1:15 for the Crystal for "Heavy Cleaning"). It doesn't look like there's any way I can get it before Monday at this point though. Everywhere I'm looking says Monday or Tuesday for delivery.

I'm not so much looking for EASY as I'm looking for what I can do myself* that doesn't involve tons of equipment, hazardous chemicals, or trying to find a shop to do things for me* because I live in M***achusetts, and there don't really seem to be any.

 

You are right about SGC being sold in qty. Home Depot sell it by the case of 6. I was able to buy a gallon locally but that was sometime ago. A gallon goes a long ways.

http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Green-19128-Industrial-Degreaser/dp/B000ULLGRU

A gallon is a reasonable amount to experiment with and test its effectiveness. Old engine sludge would be a test of the Crystal. Usually cleaning oily heavy sludge requires a volatile petroleum based solvent.

The nice thing about Crystal Green is we work inside a shop with a wood stove so we can work and not worry about an explosion. We used water borne paint as well but got a good lesson in that. Waterborne pains often are promoted as Eco friendly but their urethanes are as unhealthy as volatile urethanes for people. It requires a painting with protection and in a good environment like a paint booth or outside. Waterborne Part A & Part B MSDS sheets verify how toxic the waterborne urethanes are & the eco part is the water used as the reducer. We used a spray booth & I had a reaction to the urethane. I read the MSDS sheets before I started to see what level of protection they required.

If you are working outside you could try a Varsol or a Naptha product like Coleman Campstove Fuel. The campstove fuel is not as offensive. You could collect either of these solutions and let them settle out overnight then pour off the clear and reuse it. Using a cheap stiff paint brush to work it in may speed cleaning. Naptha is used to mix with heavy bitumen based oil to transport it in pipe otherwise it would not flow. The Naptha is extracted by the refinery and sent back to keep the mining operation to continue the process. Bitumen is a tar. Disposal of used Varsol or Naptha still is a nuisance. Varsol is not as pleasant to use. I would wear rubber gloves and use a filter mask as a precaution with either of these. Best not to find out what they do to people. Around 1972 I met an old industrial painter that had a small tremor in his hands that he said was caused by Varsol. They used Varsol for cleaning all their paint gear in a poor shop environment & not using masks. He could paint a perfect straight line which was interesting to watch.
Glenn

 

Thanks! I found a retailer that sells through epay and got some various chem resistant gloves too. I'm only in $40 for a gallon and a bunch of different gloves to try out. I'm going to HD probably Sat. to pick up brushes and probably the SG HD concentrate to try out as well and for general heavy cleaning in the shop. I also want to see what WD40 does (and I need some anyway since I use it to protect bare metal for short periods) and I need more penetrating oil that is NOT Liquid Wrench (because it stinks and doesn't work that well, I like that "Ultra Lube" stuff in the black & green can).

 

Are you expecting your solvents or cleaners to dissolve all that thick crud? Even using lacquer thinner it would take a weeklong soak. Get the s****ers out and remove as much as you can before you start soaking it.

Personally, I'd s****e as much gunk as I could, then I'd use kerosene to dissolve the rest that I could reach. Then I'd dis***emble as much of the engine as I could, and take the remainder for a hot tanking. After that I'd soak the remaining rusty/locked up parts with Kroil or the homemade ****** fluid and acetone mixture, and dis***emble the rest then.

 

I'm not & yes, that's the plan (sans the K1), @alchemy , got a call from the machinist, he's firing his hot tank back up soon, so this weekend will be a tear down, s****ing, & scrubbing. Gonna get some s****ers, brushes, and dollar store kitchen implements and see what works.

Also ordered new studs, gaskets & rings.

 

Well, not to sounds like a Debbie Downer, but I wouldn't rings until you know the bores are good. You won't know until after you hot tank it. Makes no sense to tear it down and put it back together only to have an oil burner.

 

Yep. I wouldn't by anything for it until I was sure was size it would end up (crank journals and bore sizes).

 

Maybe it is just me, but I've never taken one (that has been running for awhile) apart that didn't need to be bored . . . no matter how big of hopes I had. Now I've deliberately NOT taken some apart - just to see how well they ran - the FlatCab is an example . . . it is a good running 100 HP engine, been rebuilt before, had good compression on all 8 cylinders, so I gambled a set of gaskets - got lucky. Yes, it uses a bit of oil, but still a good runner.

Also, in many cases there is rust in the bores (and I can see that your engine had some water in it) . . . and even a little bit will cause you to use oil and smoke. It all depends on what your goals are and if you want to be 100% sure that it is fully rebuilt and ready for years of service. If you're trying to get by with the least amount of $$$ possible, then you can take shortcuts anyplace you feel comfortable.

To me, by the time I tear the whole thing down, pay for hot-tanking, cleaning and magnafluxing, a valve job, probably new valve components, a gasket set, new bearings, etc - might as well call Egge for a good set of street pistons and rings - probably set you back another $250 - $300 . . . plus a bore and hone job. The time you'll put into a complete tear down and build is a lot - so be sure of your goals before you cut any corners.

B&S

 

Yeah, I probably should have finished my coffee before I placed that order. If I end up needing a different size, hopefully I can return them and not get burned up too bad. Otherwise they might end up in the "Oops-Parts" pile, which is fortunately not big or terribly costly at all (so far). I did at least have the presence of mind not to buy crank stuff, because Jack had mentioned a bunch of different options and suggestions to me and I couldn't remember any of them.

I guess we'll all find out soon though. I'm going to pull the pan and look at the bottom end Saturday.

Also of note, I got into the shop yesterday to turn the heat on again since we're in some cold weather again. I poked at the crud with a screwdriver in a couple spots to see what I'm dealing with and I was pleasantly surprised. It appears that it's not hard crud, it's soft crud! It's about the consistency of cake batter, so I can probably remove most of it with a spatula and many exclamations of disgust and cusses

 

Yeah - you'll find that most of the thick stuff will come off - just a hell of a mess . . . seems to get everywhere on YOU that you don't want. This is the cl***ic 'sludge' you always heard about - really don't see it in modern engines, with filters and detergent out.

 

Yeah, unless you don't mind having your hands stained black for a few days, I'd use some rubber gloves while s****ing off the crud. I start with screwdrivers and end up with wire brushes and kerosene.