Mystery Axle or Why can't I set up my front end? Model A Project

I've started working in ernest on the Model A. Of course the first thing I do I hit a wall.

As you can see the 31" poses spring I have is too short (bought for an old project). I had these spring shackles from another spring that are long enough to attach the spring to the axle but when I put a load on it, one side flips up, one side down.


The spring perch holes on the axle measure 37.5" center to center. So subtracting 4.5" means I need a 33" spring, right?
Problem is I have not found anybody that sells a 33" spring, so what gives?

Here you can see the old shackel I have is longer then the new ones I bought but still it isn't working right.


So I'm stumped on where to get a spring that will work with this axle, any clues???


Next issue,
I also bought previously the sbc mounting plate for a model A chassis. I got the engine "located" but it's really low. Too low,



The fan is barely on the bottom third of the radiator and it hits the lower outlet.



I know the engine still need to be tilted back which will raise the fan a bit but I still think it'll be low.

So I'm asking for opinions/advice (which can be a pandora's box on this site) about using 1" tube spacers between the engine mount that is welded to the frame and the rubber bushing on the mount.




something like this,



I was thinking this would give me a bit more height without having to buy or make new parts (again I had all this stuff from a previous project). I was going to tack weld the tubing to the mounting plate on the frame. Thoughts?

I'll do a new post about the caster!!!

 

I probably should have taken a picture when I had the engine mounted in the frame. Under load the right side shackle would point down, and actually contact the axle, the left side shackle would point up, similar to the first picture. I was expecting them both to point down, and even out but it seemed to flop to one side...make sense?

 

I always put the spring on with the tires installed and weight on the front end...
i.e engine..put a 2x4 block under the spring and above the axle..then push down..
to put the shackle on...d32

 

Are you installing the shackles with them pointing up or down? If you install them pointing up theres no way they will just flop into the correct down position once weight is applied.

What Dudley32 says will work...or disassemble the spring (using proper clamps and care to prevent the spring leaves from unloading violently) and install the main leaf first, then add the rest...again carefully.

 

also should have said..bolt up one side, with shackle then use the block on the other side..d32

 

WOW! My eyes missed that stuff completely!!!!
You need to do more study on frontends...and those blocks are suicide...especially as your using them!

Get some 6 ton (broad base) stands...I knew a couple of people who cars fell on. One died...the other had lifelong injuries.

 

With those longer 42-48 shackles, I think your spring is going to drag on the top of the axle once it's installed correctly. Those shackles are designed to allow the spring to hang and use a panhard bar for side to side location unlike the earlier style spring you have which should be mounted in tension. You can get a custom mainleaf made at a spring shop for little dough ( I had one made a few years back for $40) and use it with the rest of your posies leaves. Then you can use the correct shackles AND have the right spring. yeah, those bones being uspidedown will cause problems too... Good luck!

Edit: I don't see any problem at all with using those spacers under your motor mounts as long as they're securely welded.

 

I'm curious about engine/body placement. Is the body slide back for working room or is that where it mounts? Sounds to me like you need to cut motor mounts off and position motor where it needs to be, AFTER you mount the front end and body.
One mistake people tend to make on these builds is engine crowding, (fan to close or dist. against firewall). That to me looks like shit. I wouldn't use any spacers on mounts! Do it right and do a clean job the first time and whenever you want to sell it people can't talk shit on your ride!

 

I knew that those would get someone's attention, they are gone, jack stands are in place. the engine was actually supported under the oil pan in those pictures, the frame was all the blocks were holding up. I know bad bad

I'll try this Dudley but I'm concerned like thunderbird said that they'll drag, we'll see.

I slid the body way back for room, it's not even close to where it should be. The motor mount is that plate that bolts to the front of the block and goes from one side to the other. THen there are the mounting brackets that weld/bolt to the frame. As is I can't get it any higher. The spacers cant really be seen once installed, but that is why I asked the question. I want to do this right. OF course I'd like to use the parts I already bought.

Thanks for the comments fellas, I had no idea how much I don't know!

 

I did similar one last week, 31" spring. We used an adjustable spring perch where a bolt went thru the axle and has an 'eye' that the spring perch passes thru it sideways. I put the entire spring package in and put just a couple threads on the perch nut. The spring & shackels bolted up and i drew down on the spring perch nut (it pulls it in sideways). I replaced an existing spring that was gotten weak in 4 hours and that included the head scratching.

 

Do you need the hurst style mount or just want to use it because you have it? I'd skip it and get some side mounts like Vendetta Auto Fab has that way you can raise/lower the motor to where you want it.

 

Nope Dan I don't need it, just what I bought back when I had the sedan. At this point I was just hoping it would work so I didn't have to buy something twice. I'm ending up doing that a lot on the project so far...

 

Hmm, you've got a couple different generations of parts there. I am not sure that there will be an off-the-shelf spring for this.

You may be able to "correct" the mis-match by changing the length of the shackle. It looks like your long shackles are too long, and the short ones are too short.

When I set up a traditional A front end, I choose a spring that is 3" shorter than the perch eyelet measurement. This is because Model A shackles are 1-1/2" on center, each. If you know what the specs for the eyelet spacing are on that spring, subtract that from the perch eyelet measurement. Divide that number in half, and make your shackles that long. This should work, so long as the shackles are not so long then, that they hit the beam when cycled.

You can re-drill the long shackles, and then cut off the excess. Cheap.

 

Those old shackles you are trying to use are for spring ahead of axle not spring over the axle....Pitch them and use the new ones you have there in photo..may have to disassemble the spring and
hook up main leaf up first...then add remaining leaves...
thunderbirdesq is telling you right.

 

I like this idea, I'll probably try this first. Now that I've got the rods on the right sides

Thanks for taking the time to answer them! I'll keep updating as I go!

 

Engine height looks close to right for a semi stock setup...raising might be needed for heavily stepped rear and tires moving above arch of fender area. If car is to have fenders or to have tires in back matching the fender cutout in body, you don't want engine raised up into floor...stock axis would be found by putting a stick through hole for hand crank in grill, matching it to center of crank pulley, trans down just slightly from level...alterations from here would be based on how high the rear axle/wheels are to be in relation to front of frame level...how high will wheels be vis a vis wheel arches, how much engine/trans do you want in the cockpit?

 

I want to keep the tire inside the wheel arch, since the body isn't going to be channeled. I know the trans is going to be mostly inside the firewall. I don't want the engine real high, I would like the option of using the hood. Just a bit higher so the water pump fan clears the radiator outlet. I'll try to snap more pictures tonight with the spacer in place.
Thanks Bruce!

 

Aaron, I'm glad you are asking these questions because I may end up with an A Sedan in the near future and will have MANY of the same issue since I've never done anything with an A other than drool. Keep up the good work and don't lay under any of it!

 

if you run that hurst mount you will need to support your engine and trans where they mate..too much weight for that aluminum trans bell...the ability for it to flex there will crack either your block or the trans..(if used you take that risk is all im saying)
personally i would ditch it and do like Dan said..or Welder series Mounts..I used WS engine mounts and made a few changes..
if you get a few go check out my A build pictures


or come on down and see it

here is a crappy side on shot for you...hope this helps

 

Thanks Randy, I had another buddy point that out that came over last night. I'll have to think about that for sure. I do like the look of the front mount, it's pretty clean but maybe the side mounts are the way to go.

Here are some updates, I got the axle on right! but the shackle are too long. So I'll re-drill them and hopefully that will fix this issue.


Close up showing the shackle, plan on doing what Gimpy said.



Here is the motor with the spacers under the bushing, I do like the height better. The whole thing will be tilting back, right now there is a temp. crossmember that the trans is sitting on so it's not in the right position.



doesn't look too bad, but I'll have to think about the trans support.



this is just a show with the body slid up closer to where it will be. It still needs to move forward some but I'll have to cut the firewall before I can do that.


this is the temp crossmember that the trans is sitting on. That is next to cut this out and get the trans in the right position. Then get the rear located.



If you squint real hard you can just make out a hot rod! I'm excited!

 

Its lookin good Aaron..
we got a long winter coming for you to get this all figured out.
If there is anything i can do to help ya just let me know..learned alot from others on here and the idea is to pass it along.
If you decide to stay with that mount, thats cool , just would suggest you find a way to help support that mid assembly area. (trans to engine area)

 

So is this going to be your official build thread or what Aaron? I don't want to subscribe if you're all set to move on to another one!!

Looking good, by the way.

 

You're getting there.

Redrill those shackles bars to a 1.5" center , cut off the excess and you'll have that spring up where it belongs.

 

I have a set of 1.5" center shackles, it seemed like they were too short. Maybe I should try putting them on instead of worrying about redrilling???
I should change the title to make this the official build thread. I should drag up the original thread to use as the build.

 

sometimes you have to take the spring apart to put it on,the short shackles should work perfectly

 

I still think that the 1-1/2" shackles will be a bit too short in this application.

The conventional school of thought would put him with a 33" spring, with 1-1/2" shackles. He's got a 31" spring.

If I have reverse-engineered his math correctly, he should run a set of 2-1/2" shackles, to make everything equal.

It might be possible to force the main leaf on with the 1-1/2" shackles, but I don't think that the ride quality is going to be too good. It is already a pretty flat spring. Forcing it might turn in to a cross member, rather than a spring.

It is only going to cost him on drill bit sharpening to find out.

 

This is looking good!

I like when the engine sits parallel to the frame. Since you're gonna have an open driveline, it don't matter to aim for the pinion yoke.