Hot Rods Need 3 speed stick/overdrive info.

Steve is right on. Make sure the switch has a DC rating, it will be less than the AC rating. That's probably what caused the current switch to fail. Also as he says on the governor.

Good news on the cable, might turn out to be a simple fix.

 

If you're going to run the OD as you have it, look for a switch with a built-in pilot light. That will give you a visible indication of when the solenoid is engaged.

 

I'll also point out that hooking up the governor (if it's there and functioning) is easy; you have two wires going to the solenoid. One is a hot from the switch, one is a ground. Simply connect the ground to the governor instead of ch***is ground. One last thing; DO NOT try to shift OUT of OD when the transmission is under load or connected to the motor. Either push in the clutch or come to a complete stop. Failure to observe this can damage the OD shift pawl, requiring transmission dis***embly for replacement.

 

I haven't looked at that governor possibility, Steve. Without looking at the ****** now, where does the governor connect ? Ground from solenoid to governor? Just a single wire ?
Thanks.

 

It's been a long time since I had a 3 speed od. But if it's in od don't you lose reverse as well as having free wheeling in forward motion

 

The governor will be on the tailshaft housing, more towards the driveshaft end. And yes, just a single wire. The governor grounds the solenoid internally to the case completing the circuit. The governor contacts will close (energizing the solenoid for OD) once you've reached about 30 mph, and will open once speed goes below about 23 mph.

So the solenoid wiring will be: 12V power to the manual switch, switch to one of the solenoid wires, the other solenoid wire to the governor.

 

Well, I've never thought of the governor not being correct, but I will wire it, as you indicated.
Again, thanks.

 

I had a Chevy 3 spd/OD in my Model A behind a SBC. Like you, I had to figure that thing out and how to wire it. I bought a book from Speedway on the Borg-Warner OD. Between that, and an old shop manual, I had it working properly in no time - kick down and all. My only peeve was that it could go into overdrive at too low a speed. I was going to look into raising the governor actuation speed when someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse on the car. Get the book from Speedway. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Book-Borg-Warner-Overdrive,5517.html
Also, look for an old Motor's manual or Chevy service manual that has an overdrive section.

 

Your info is appreciated.
Right now, this is one step at a time, with my ongoing electrical diagnosis.
My late friend, who owned and updated this car, lived in Albuquerque NM, I'm in NC.
He drove the car only 200 miles, after its restoration, then quickly became too ill to drive, then he was gone.
I honestly don't recall if he had the overdrive working or not, but I have to follow this through.
Bob, I appreciate your info, I appreciate the input from all who replied to this thread.

 

20 amp toggle, with pilot light, is mounted to dash. The ground wire is connected to the governor. The "in-out" cable has been secured, with an additional cable bracket, to prevent "buckling" of the cable housing, when doing the push-pull on the Tee Handle.
Can anyone think of anything I've missed, before road testing the overdrive ?
Another thread coming, regarding the "pusher fan". Hoping for your input.

 

Hi again. It has been way too many years since I had a car with 3 speed ****** column shift + overdrive so I am not going to comment at all on that OD.
But both my 46 coupe & your 51 both came with the smaller 216 engines (unless yours was a power glide engine) & mine had the 411 gears in the rear end. Yours likely had the same ****** & rear end gears but not completely positive on that but they would have been close. My 46 had 600 - 16 tires as original size and the 411 rear was required to have any decent acceleration & ability to easily go up hills. It was just the way it was back in those days - low power & low gears. What size rear tires are you running?
I changed my ring & pinion to the 355:1 and put 700 - 16 rear tires with my modified 235 engine. It delinately in not something for burning rubber or drag racing now. What is now is a terrific daily driver at highway speeds & that is exactly what I wanted when I made all my changes. Doing the math on gear ratio, tire size & speed it allows me to cruise down the Hwy at 65 - 70 MPH at about the same RPM's as modern vehicles running in THIRD GEAR without an overdrive.
I think your concern on yours being a problem with a bit sluggish on the low end would be to determine whether you want it to be a great daily driver or to do a bit of racing.
In any case you definitely do have a problem with how your OD is working.
Jimmie

 

Just be aware of how it's going to work. With the T handle in (OD enabled) and the switch 'on', the OD shouldn't 'drop in' until you reach about 30 mph and lift off the gas. The trans should then 'shift' into OD with a noticeable 'thunk'. It will remain engaged until your speed drops below about 25 mph, and again you'll have a 'thunk' when OD drops out. Either of these speeds can vary by about 5 mph +/-, but there should be about a 6-8 mph 'spread'. Remember that with the OD enabled, the trans will freewheel (allow the car to roll forward) anytime the driveshaft rpm is higher than engine rpm, including while the motor is stopped, i.e. parking. You'll need to either use the e-brake, or shift into reverse, with the latter 'locking out' the OD so that the car doesn't roll away. You can also pull out the T handle (OD locked out) to stop freewheeling, but ONLY pull out the handle when the car is stopped or BEFORE the OD has engaged when accelerating. Pulling the handle out while IN OD can damage the transmission.

Also be aware that you'll have zero engine braking with the OD handle IN, so if going down any long hills are anticipated and you're not 100% sure about your brakes, stop and lock it out of OD for braking. This was a real issue with these and is one of the main reasons these transmissions finally disappeared. The vintage drum brakes would fade on long hills...

 

There's some "less than accurate" advice in this thread that you need to weed through. Get the book, or at least a schematic to help you through it.

My thoughts:
1. The solenoid doesn't take the trans out of OD, rather it puts (and holds) it into OD. When the electric source is terminated, the solenoid relaxes (it's spring loaded) and the OD disengages. There are two wires on the solenoid, one is for power input and the second is the "engine killer" ground wire that briefly stalls the engine for downshifting. This wire is routed through a kickdown switch which is attached to the carb linkage (or the gas pedal on Ford products). When you floor the throttle in OD, it kills the solenoid power and shorts out the ignition coil. The ignition is shorted only until the solenoid retracts and the car downshifts.
2. The governor doesn't ground the solenoid, rather it triggers the OD relay (via grounding), which in turn energizes the solenoid. The speeds at which it operates are dependent on your rear end ratio.
3. The BW OD was usually mated with a differential with 4.10:1 or lower gears; your 3.50:1 would probably make it feel like you're starting in second gear.
4. You will have engine braking when the OD is upshifted.

 

Since I don't have an original relay, and they don't work with HEI without adding a second relay, I used a Bosch type relay to control the OD I installed in my second Gen Chevy van. I wired a NC push ****on in series with the control circuit going to the governor so I could kick down the OD at will. Hold the ****on down while cycling the accelerator pedal and the OD will drop out until you let off the gas again.

 

Thanks for your info and schematic.
If the vehicle is NOT in overdrive, first gear is 2:94, which should accelerate OK, with the 3:50 rear.
But, if it is IN overdrive, and not intentionally in overdrive, that first gear ratio goes to a 2:05 ratio, then feeling like a second gear start up.
Right now, having it wired, so it works correctly, with my toggle, is my goal.
I did not do any of this work on this car, my friend, the previous owner, who did all the work, has p***ed away.
I cannot question him, so I am depending on answers here, which I am thankful for.

 

I still would pull the solinoid off and see if it comes off without having to turn it. I think it is forcing the pawl in.

 

If it is stuck in overdrive, then reverse will not work. Put another way, if reverse works it is NOT in overdrive.

The simplest thing to do is hotwire the solenoid with a simple toggle switch. Once you confirm that it works, you can figure out the fine details of the entire system.

As for ratios, I was running a 2.95 first gear with a 3.25 rear all behind a strong 302 Ford. To me, that combo felt like starting in second gear so I swapped to a 3.80 rear. You're running a 235 six.

 

Mike is right, I missed the internal ground on the solenoid. But you can still wire it for 'automatic' operation using the governor with a simple headlight relay (available at nearly any parts store). To wire in the relay, take the power wire from your toggle switch and connect it to both the '88' and '87' terminals. Connect the '30' terminal to the 'power in' wire on the solenoid; this can be identified by checking each solenoid wire to ground. The one that reads to ground is power, the other one will read open. Connect the wire from the governor to the '85' terminal. The second wire on the solenoid isn't used.

 

Here's a link that might be useful. Nothing new compared to here, but in one place. It's a ford link, but I'm pretty sure it applies to all units fitted with the BW o/d.

http://www.fordification.com/tech/overdrive.htm

T86 Borg Warner OD exploded view (didn't come up as a link, but if you google it, the exploded views come up)

This is included

"A complete overdrive transmission must be used. It is NOT possible to add the overdrive component to an existing three speed transmission. The main reason you cannot add the OD parts to an existing 3 speed trans is the need for a shaft/rod to p*** from the gear box into the OD unit to automatically lock out the OD freewheeling clutch whenever it is shifted into reverse. Only gearboxes designed to be fitted to an OD unit had this p***age and internal linkage."

 

That's not entirely true; at one time Advance Adaptors offered conversions to install the BW OD behind various transmissions including Muncie and BW T10 four speeds. But there were no FACTORY parts that would allow a conversion.

 

Once I saw an R10 spliced into a torque tube. It worked flawlessly. I was wondering is the only reason they can't be adapted to a std 3spd is the reverse rod to lock out the od? Are there other reasons why?
Seems it would work fine without the reverse lock out (as did the one spliced into a torque tube). Just make sure you manually lock it out before backing. What am I missing?

Thanks

 

I can't believe I read something on the internet that isn't true!

I also know of a custom install of an R-11 behind a top loader. You're not missing anything, Adam. Just the necessity of making it foolproof to leave a factory under warranty.

I was just trying to help him get on the road.

 

Based on what you're saying above, what I did below is null and void now ? Need to start over, correct ? Just trying to be clear, with my next step. Many ideas here, many thanks.
Steve said : I'll also point out that hooking up the governor (if it's there and functioning) is easy; you have two wires going to the solenoid. One is a hot from the switch, one is a ground. Simply connect the ground to the governor instead of ch***is ground. One last thing; DO NOT try to shift OUT of OD when the transmission is under load or connected to the motor. Either push in the clutch or come to a complete stop. Failure to observe this can damage the OD shift pawl, requiring transmission dis***embly for replacement.
Bob did : 20 amp toggle, with pilot light, is mounted to dash. The ground wire is connected to the governor. The "in-out" cable has been secured, with an additional cable bracket, to prevent "buckling" of the cable housing, when doing the push-pull on the Tee Handle.
Can anyone think of anything I've missed, before road testing the overdrive ?
Another thread coming, regarding the "pusher fan". Hoping for your input.

 

You don't need to 'start over', just alter the wiring a bit....

 

Bob,
Just wire a toggle switch with 12 volts to solenoid for now. Flip switch ON when you want to upshift to OD and off when you want to downshift. Let us know if that works and then we can talk about more permanent installation.

 

It should be noted that to do the above, the tee handle must be in pushed in, and you'll have to let off the gas (allowing the trans to freewheel) to allow the shift.

 

OK guys, I'll stay with the wiring to the solenoid, will get the car out for a ride, then post back.
Thanks to ALL for working me through this.

 

Bob,

If you haven't done it yet---------Before even wiring in a switch I think you should quickly just take a 12V source and apply voltage to the solenoid's power wire. If the solenoid is good you will hear a fairly strong click and you're on your way to OD land. No click= no joy. Pull solenoid for bench test. Two bolts+ quarter twist on solenoid and it's out.

 

I did get a click when I checked solenoid.