Hot Rods Need 3 speed stick/overdrive info.

I feel that answering this question is hijacking the thread, but you got the right idea. The only difference between the standard three speed and the three speed OD is three holes in the case that can be easily drilled. Two are for oil p***ages and the last is for the lock out rod.

 

I don't believe its a good idea to wire the solenoid directly to the governor but to use the governor to control a relay that energizes the solenoid. The points on the governor aren't rated to carry the amps required to energize the solenoid. Might work for a while but with repeated cycling the points will burn. The OD in my '70 van had been wired that way in the PO's vehicle and it would not work till I took the governor apart and polished up the contacts.

 

Being that I have a toggle switch, how would EZCool go about wiring this?
I appreciate all the input, but need to understand which way will work correctly ..... with the toggle, since I don't know.
I understand good opinions are giving me pros and cons to the wiring process.
I need a path that will work, in the minds of all who have contributed to my issue here.
Thanks.

 

can't insert picture from Photobucket with my dumb phone but maybe this link will work. It's a pic of my wiring diagram

http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/E...ring diagram_zpsae1b9tds.jpg.html?sort=3&o=37

 

With all respect, please understand that the governor CANNOT be used to directly control the solenoid, even if you wanted it to. The governor switches to ground, and the solenoid is already grounded through its case. The "extra" wire on the solenoid is for a specific purpose. Have a look at the schematic I posted.

The original overdrive relay is triggered by ground--- the ground being sent by the governor. In order to reproduce the original OD relay function you need a modern relay that is triggered by ground and is rated for about 30A continuous duty.

 

You are correct sir. Another brain fart on my part

 

Solenoid is the way to go, but I've seen pics of a manually shift mod to the BW overdrive too. A lever was set up to do what the solenoid does, and reportedly it worked fine.

 

How about an update Bob? Tell us what you have tested and the results and any other details you may have learned. I keep re-reading your original post and feel that some of the responses don't directly address your question.

Have you road tested the car with the solenoid disconnected? And are you sure that the solenoid plunger is retracted with the power off? The car should not be able to roll backward if the OD is engaged, even in neutral. However there is an internal shaft that allows the ****** to SHIFT into reverse. So to be sure, check to see if the car rolls backward in neutral. I suggest these methods as a way to find out if the transmission is truly in direct ( non OD) drive. Since the original post suggests that the ****** might be stuck in OD.

 

I have gotten confused with the replies. Not being an electrical guy of any value, and after reading all the posts, I have back tracked and removed any wires connected to the ******.
Right now, I have one wire going from an ignition power source to the new toggle switch, the second wire on the new toggle switch is not attached to anything now.
I have not moved forward from that point.

 

Bob,
Trust me, easy as can be, hook up the other side of the switch to the solenoid and go for a ride. Flip the switch, ease off the throttle, and you'll feel an automatic upshift to overdrive. That will put a smile on your face and motivate you to move ahead with this project.

 

an

I trust you. All you folks have been very helpful with the overdrive issue, 57 Heap has even offered to talk me through this.
Guess because I'm now old as dirt, maybe older by some estimates, my lack of ability to now obtain a positive goal is less than acceptable, especially to me.
BUT, here's what I did do, this Sunday, 3-20.
Without anything electrical hooked to the ******, I drove the car.
On a SLIGHT INCLINE, acceleration was so poor, the clutch smelled. Nothing happened, when gas pedal was released, with Tee Handle "in".
Went back home. With a power source from the ignition switch, running through a 14 gauge wire to a 20 amp toggle switch, the other lead from the toggle switch was connected to the solenoid. With key "on", and engine off, a click can be heard from the solenoid, when flipping the toggle switch.
On the road, TEE Handle is pushed in, towards firewall, foot is taken off the gas, toggle switch energizes solenoid, nothing happens.
Did the run again, this time, when foot was taken off gas, toggle switch was flipped in opposite direction. Nothing happened.
Final trip. This time, an ADDITIONAL wire connection was made from solenoid to governor. Same road test, tee handle in, foot off gas, nothing happened.
Being that it feels like a second gear start, does anyone believe the ****** is stuck in overdrive?
Using ONLY the toggle switch power, is it even possible to have overdrive and non overdrive operation ?
Maybe it's time to buy the pizza and beer and have the H.A.M.B. gurus go at this issue.

 

If there's no mechanical issues with the trans, yes. As you describe your road test, it should have gone into/out of OD when the switch was operated. Does the trans 'freewheel' when you lift off the gas, i.e. is there any engine braking? If it is freewheeling, downshifting won't increase engine braking or engine speed. If it isn't freewheeling, then it's locked out of OD and the solenoid won't do anything. I suppose it's possible that the trans is damaged, modified, or incorrectly ***embled and is 'locked' into OD but you'll have to pull the trans to determine that.

 

What time will the pizza be there?

It could be stuck in OD, but I don't think that is possible. The design is such that you need both the solenoid and cable to be functioning properly to engage the OD. If the solenoid is not energized and/or the cable is pulled out, the transmission will not go into OD. From what you described, the problem maybe something else.

Someone posted a concern about the rear axle ratio, that it might be too high. Also, you mentioned that the clutch might be slipping. Either of these would cause poor acceleration. Perhaps you should correct the clutch adjustment, then check the axle to determine the ratio. Finally, you could put the car on a lift and rotate the engine with the transmission in third gear. The engine and driveshaft should turn at the same rotation.

These might help to determine that the transmission is in direct drive and you could calculate the transmission and axle ratios to determine what the final drive ratio is in first gear.

 

Bob,
If at any time you were able to drive in reverse (which I would suspect during multiple test drives), then the trans is definitely not stuck in OD. If it was stuck in OD, attempting reverse results in a total lockup and the car won't roll backwards.

Is it possible you have a sticky brake or something that is binding up your driveline? That's what it sounds like to me. Is it possible the engine simply lacks power for another reason?

Using the toggle switch is enough to engage OD, provided that your cable "T" is not in the lock-out position---- the only goal of the remaining electrics is to enable automatic operation of upshifting and downshifting--- in other words the goal of the electric system is to switch the power to the solenoid, which you are now doing manually.

Connecting the governor wire to the other wire of the solenoid accomplishes nothing. That other solenoid wire is used only for automatically killing the engine to enable downshifting, and the governor wire is supposed to go to the overdrive relay (if you have a relay).

EDIT: One other thing. All along I've ***umed you're on 12 volts. If you're still on 6 Volts, it may be possible that the 14GA wire you used is too thin to carry the current to throw the solenoid. With 6 Volts, a 12 or 10 gauge wire is better, especially if there's a long length to travel.

 

A lot of people using these overdrives don't realize that there is a separate fill plug for the OD unit and end up running the OD unit dry. Of course when this happens it could lock up the sun gear causing the OD not to function.

 

Well, reading the recent posts, I thank each of you for taking the time, here's what I can say.
This O.D. problem car has a Ford 9", with a 3:50 positraction. Seemingly not the best ratio for an O.D. ******.
That being said, if the O.D. is locked OUT, ****** first gear is a 2:94 ratio.
A 2:94 ratio, with a 3:50 rear should move the car, just fine. BUT, it feels like it's accelerating in 2nd gear, from a complete stop.
Brakes are free, car rolls easily, if pushed by hand.
To compare, my OTHER '51 is a regular 3 speed stick, with a 2:94 first gear, now has a 3:55 powerglide rear.
It accelerates fine with the 3:55, so the 3:50 should, as well.
Reverse on the problem car works. It does have the 12 volt system.
The engine in the problem car has power, doesn't seem to lack in performance.
The TEE HANDLE initially did not seem to move the lever far enough to engage the O.D.
I added a cable housing clamp to prevent the cable from buckling, when pushing the TEE HANDLE in for engagement. That fix moved the lever to its limit, when pushing in TEE HANDLE.
I need verification to my thinking, so let me run this by you guys.
When the TEE HANDLE is pushed IN to engage, and I take my foot off the gas, should the toggle be flipped "on" to energize the solenoid ..... OR should the toggle be flipped "off" to de-energize the solenoid?
I just need some clarity, too many thoughts on a system that should not cause me such confusion.
Again, thanks to all.

 

I'll repeat, the trans MUST be in 'OD enabled' (T handle IN) AND freewheeling for the OD solenoid to engage or disengage the actual OD. If the trans IS NOT freewheeling with the handle in, OD is locked out and the solenoid can't do anything.

 

Bob, flip the switch on to energize the solenoid. This can be done before the cable is pushed in, even before you pull out of the driveway. Once you get out on the highway push in the T handle and then lift your foot off the gas. The engine speed should drop and the OD engage.

When you want to disengage the OD, come to a complete stop, turn off the switch and pull out the cable.

 

57Heap and Steve,
In addition to the original electrics, I have a toggle for "manual override". If I flip the toggle on while stationary the trans will upshift and I start in First/Over. What I'm saying is that you don't need to be in motion and release the throttle to upshift, it will upshift immediately as long as there isn't a load on the driveline.

Bob,
As I said before and 57Heap confirms, toggle "ON" to upshift, OFF to downshift.
Sorry to hear of your difficulties. I do think you're getting closer, but I also fear that there may be some internal problems perhaps created by mis***embly of the internals. These OD units have a reputation for stout mechanical reliability, although quirky on the electrics, but they also need proper ***embly to work right. I've seen at least two stories on the HAMB where the tension on the balk ring was wrong and gave the same symptoms (non-upshift)you have.
I'd remove the solenoid for two reasons: First to be sure it actually works by bench testing it, and secondly to test whether the part of the transmission that the solenoid moves, actually moves and isn't seized up.

With the solenoid removed, you can insert a piece of wire coat hanger (or equivalent) with a "J" hook on it inside the solenoid hole and you can push/pull on the part that the solenoid ball connects to. If it fails to move, full dis***embly is next.

 

You can test the solenoid by removing the bolts that hold it in place. Once removed, you can pull the solenoid and it should move back and forth, but not come out. ( you need to rotate the solenoid to do this) This will prove that the solenoid is engaged in the pawl that engages the blocking ring. And that the pawl slides into position as it should. You could also energize the solenoid to visually inspect that the plunger moves out.

It appears to me that perhaps the transmission will not engage OD and that the engine is not providing the power to the rear wheels that you expect. Maybe you should start with some engine test to insure it is sound before getting into the ******.

 

Correct, but the key thing to remember is there can't be any LOAD on the transmission for the solenoid to 'shift' in or out of OD...

 

I know, I just said that....
Yes, Heap said to throw the switch, then drive onto the highway and pedal the throttle to cause the upshift. If you put a toggle switch, speed no longer matters, and any time you coast at all it's gonna upshift whether you pedal the throttle or not.

 

Thanks again, to Steve, Sam, Mike and all others who helped me. Read below.

 

We now have overdrive !
Taking my foot off the gas at 25 to 30 MPH, time after time, nothing happened, so I would turn around and head home. Did all the wiring steps you read from me, in earlier posts.
BUT, today, taking my foot off the gas at 35 MPH or higher, it goes into O.D. just fine.
Do it UNDER 35 MPH, and you have no O.D.
There is still a problem with the sluggish start in 1st gear.
The "new" Ford 9" was shipped to my late friend, crated and fully ***embled.
I will check the ratio, looking to see if it actually is the 3:50 ratio, as stated on the paperwork.
That, however, will be another day and not today.
Thanks to all.
Why won't the O.D. kick in until above 35 MPH ?
Ah heck, never mind. I really don't need to know.
Thanks to all.
Next step is to determine why the temp running high with the 12" electric pusher.

 

Bob,
Just another observation, sometimes my OD won't upshift until the trans warms up a bit.

Without a governor and od relay, in theory it should upshift when you toggle the switch at any speed.

Anyway, congrats.

 

Thanks, Mike.

 

Found this at another post on H.A.M.B.
I've talked about the pokey first gear acceleration.
First gear is 2:94, rear is 3:50.
Read this, from Tom Langdon.
Based on Tom's figures:
MY overall first gear ratio is 10.29. Close to a clutch slipper.
MY final drive is 3.50, not in overdrive.
MY final drive is 2.52, in overdrive.

"Here is a quote from Tom Langdons stovebolt 6 page showing that what you are planning is just right, if you have not been to his site, it's worth a visit. He has been playing with the 6 bangers for a long, long time.

Gear Ratios
General guidelines would recommend about 12:1 1st gear overall driveline ratio (1st gear x axle ratio) for a good ‘take off’ gearing for a 235 Cu. In. engine. Below 10:1 will require clutch slipping and in excess of 15:1 will be an aggravation similar to a ‘granny gear’.

Final drive should be between 3.0 and 2.50. If overdrive is .73 and your axle is 3.73, your final drive will be 3.73 X .73 = 2.72 (perfect!)!

 

Yes, this is exactly why I swapped my 3.25 rear for a 3.80. With my 2.95 first gear I was at 9.58, now I'm at 11.21.

 

you have a sweet set up. I hope it works out correctly.

 

A big difference for you, Mike ?