Technical Need advice on cracked block

First - I posted this same message in an "Introduce yourself" post but I do not know how to find it again - so sorry for the repeat.

I have my dad's 1964 409. I brought the heads, crank, and block into NAPA to be checked out/cleaned up. The heads were good and the crank checked out OK to go back in with stock bearings. When cleaning the block the found "THE" crack. Just below the deck on the outer water jacket. It is about 8 or 10 inches long. I talked to an engine block welder that scared me away. He said the process is rough and would likely bring out other flaws and areas that need to be welded and could be 2-3 grand and would also require the cylinders be bored out / new pistons. I cannot justify this cost presently - maybe never. I really hoped to just put it all back together stock - especially since I do not even have a car for it yet.

One question I have is if the "pinning process" is an acceptable option for this type of crack. Sounds like I could then still put it back together stock. Are there any other reasonable options?

If I cannot swing this repair I am - painfully - considering selling the complete engine - cracked block the only issue - complete with a tri-power manifold and carbs. What is this potentially worth?

Any advice would be sincerely appreciated - thanks..................Cracked

 

That's not a good spot for a crack to be... I assume its just below the deck? Have pictures??
Personally I think its time to locate another block....

 

Can we see a picture of it?

 

Here's a photo

 

Ouch!!! Pinning is not an option. You could have it welded, but it would likely cost more than another block would...

 

Any professional welder could attempt this repair and it won't cost 2 to 3 grand. Drill an 1/8" hole at the ends of the crack to stop the crack from getting longer. They make some very good cast iron rod in both arc and TIG, pre heat the area with a rose bud and weld it up. You have nothing to loose!

 

Look for another block and a boat so you can use that as an anchor.

 

How about put freeze plugs in the block on that side lay the block over and fill with block filler but not so much that fill the water jackets.

 

Lot of 409 blocks crack in the same spot. You can buy another 409 block by shopping around. They are out there. A lot of them now a days are the truck blocks but that will be ok. They have compression reliefs in the side of the cyl wall but boring will remove most of it.
check withthe guys over on the 348-409 site and they may be able to lead you to a block or at least tell you who they would trust to weld that block up.
There are many cracked blocks out there running after they have been fixed.

 

No, don't want to do that. The head bolts pull up on the block in that area. That kinda looks like damage from freezing. There may be other cracks that are not visible to the eye....

 

Before you get all excited talk to these guys.
http://www.locknstitch.com/
You have all evening to surf their site, watch videos, and search the Hamb.

 

Vicky 31 - thanks for the LockNStitch link - sounds like it might be exactly what I am looking for. Anyone have any experience with this stuff?

 

Go to McMaster-Carr and buy nickel mig wire...search for it, it will pop right up.

Drill both ends of the crack to stop it from travelling as already suggested. V out the crack for the full length, and clean, clean, clean it...use some brake clean and a stainless steel brush. Heat it several times with a torch to 200 or 300 degrees to burn out any oils that may be in the cast iron pores. You do NOT want any porosity in that weld.

Right before you weld, preheat the area with a torch...not crazy hot, maybe 300 degrees. While it's still hot, weld a 2" or so length with a mig welder using the nickel wire. After you're done welding the 2" section, IMMEDIATELY (before it stops glowing), start hitting the weld with a ball peen hammer. Don't smash the hell out of it, but don't lightly tap on it either. The trick is to expand the weld in the crack as it cools so that it does not crack on edge of the weld. Let cool slowly. Repeat until you've welded the entire crack. Grind smooth, then hit it with an air powered needle scaler to give the area some texture. It will be damn near invisible.

Most of the above mentioned procedure comes out of a Lincoln Welding school textbook that I bought online.

Does it come with a fool-proof guarantee? No, welding cast iron is tricky, but I've done it a few times and it works for me. You're dealing with a fairly high quality piece of cast, not Mexican cast iron lawn furniture, which should help things out.

The MOST fool-proof method I've heard of for welding cast iron involves pre-heating the ENTIRE piece (the whole block) to about 3 or 400 degrees, welding it quickly with nickel, then burying the whole thing in insulation (Kitty litter or sand) to let it slowly cool for about 2 days.

Try it...what do you have to lose?

Chris

 

I have used the lock and stitch stuff before, the problem is the location of your crack. When the head is torqued down it will pull up on the deck so I don't think this is a good location for that type of repair.

31 vickey, that was a great read!! Thanks for the link. I'm having cracked block blues myself and am considering welding. That site confirmed what I was thinking for a pre heat temp..

 

I have been using a Henrob torch to weld cast iron for about 14 years. Its amazing how easy it is. Cast iron melts like brass. I think the newer version of the Henrob is called a Dillon

 

I have saved several "freeze crack" blocks. Just like the 409.

I have a bake and blest system for cleaning engine blocks. Just turn the oven heat up a bit. Then use a Mig welder and silicon bronze wire. Weld short two-three inch welds and keep heating between welding. When finished, I turn the heat down slowly in steps. With the block slowly rotating in the oven. Then cast shot, blast the block.

These blocks ALWAYS need to have the decks cut to finish the job. No matter what system is used as the deck is distorted by the original freezing and also by the repair..

Aint cheap but less than $600.00

 

Holy crap ? hell that's nothing
Check this one out
http://www.locknstitch.com/Repair pdf files/Sea Escape.pdf

 

I've done both repairs on cast iron before.....stitching and welding. If you can locate a deck plate and clean all the threads for the head bolts....torque the plate down carefully in torque increments 20#s, 30#s, 40#s...checking the distortion of the crack...make sur you check your bores also.... this will give you an idea of which way you want to tackle this situation...after torquing is finished and crack does seem minimal....you can stitch or if it opens up you can "v" out the crack (remembering to preheat)...( Also a good welding blanket to keep heat in block as you weld) And yes get yourself some thing (wood box with sand or kitty litter) for very slow cool down. I've used nickel rod with great success. Good luck!

 

It always scares the hell out of me when anyone mentions brake clean and heat in the same sentence. Heating brake clean makes phosgene gas, so the statement "Try it...what do you have to lose?" is a serious one to think about.

 

The perfect ultimate error-
The right brake cleaner plus heat and your dead, maybe worse - you ain't dead but so fucked up you spend the rest of your life wishing you were.

 

Yes These guys are about 2 block from my shop. We had them do the repairs on our race motor. I will be posting pics of the repair on our post soon http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=728009&page=39

they do do good work ! not cheap ! our block cost us 1000.00 bucks so by the time you ship the block and have it repaired you may be better to find another block

 

Barsteel, thanks for writing up your weld method. This what is best about the HAMB!

 

except leave out the brake clean part

 

I have a 348 block that is cracked in the same place. A company called Midwest Cylinder Head was recommended by several reputable machine shops here in Northern Illinois.
http://www.midwestcylinderhead.com/

They said that they could weld the crack without any problems, for about $300- $400. However, this was about 5 years ago, so the cost probably has gone up since then. I never got around to getting it done, but they have a very good reputation. My main problem was the 3-4 hour drive to and from their shop in Nevada Iowa. The plan was to deliver and pick up my block myself, rather than have it shipped.

 

Eutectic made a rod for welding Cast Iron with Heli Arc, 22 and 23xe...This rod works well and it works two ways, keep the weld area hot or under 125°..I chose the under 125° and it worked very well..

 

Looks like I'm going to have to Google search these bad boys.....

 

You guys keep saying "what have you got to lose?".

Heres what. You weld the block, have it machined both to correct the issues and to rebuild. Both of those arent exactly pennies. If everything holds together, then you did well, BUT, what happens once you start running it and it doesnt once it starts heat cycling? All that machine work money just went out the window.

I agree if it were an intake or an ex manifold, but me personally, Id find a new block.

 

Block sealer

 

Any prudent individual would compare the cost of repair to a different block.
If originality is a factor this needs to be figured into things also.
As far as risk on the repair, that certainly is a factor, but everyday we see brand new engines with parts exiting the block. So it's all relative and there's lots to loose but lots to gain too.

 

I get the risk/cost if restoring a numbers matching rare car, but thats not the case here, its just a 409 for a future build.