Ok guys help me out here. I need to run a new fuel line. The stroker motor just cant get enough fuel when getting in it. Its currently a 3/8" line, ***uming I should go with a 1/2". Now the questions... Currently my fuel line is on the p***enger side, front to back. It stops about even with the p***. side coil spring area, then I have a rubber hose from there under the motor over to the fuel pump. I dont know if that is factory or not. I am ***uming not. My dad ran a new line 20 yrs ago when he put a chevy motor in it, which had the fuel pump on the p*** side. Course now the 302 fuel pump is on the driver side, so I figure thats the side that "should" have the line. What type of line should I run? What side should it be on? Is it worth buying pre-bent line from cl***ic tube? I dont know what size that is though. I have a holley blue electric pump, regulator and relay kit. Should I consider that, or stick with my high volume carter pump since its all there and working fine. So I am just trying to see how it should be done, and what to use. I will also be running dual exhaust that turn down over the axles, not straight out the back. Some other food for thought...Currently its just a cut line on both ends. Rubber hose to tank, rubber hose to fuel pump. I dont have the factory tank in the car right now, its from something else, who knows what. When I do all this fuel line work, I am putting a factory tank back in which I already have ready to go brand new. So looking for the best way to go front to back with a line using the factory tank.
if your starving for fuel , the first thing i would do would be go to an electric pump. going to a 1/2 inch line would not be effective unless you have the fitting in the tank changed to match it. i think its only a 5/16s in my 55. drivers side is where mine runs.
hmmm...good thinking there, never thought about that. I need to get my new tank out of the box and check it out. The fuel line on the car now is in perfect shape so there is no other reason to swap it, other than trying to get more fuel. I have a pressure gauge at the carb, at idle I have 6-7 which is about right for my setup. But I dont know what its doing at 5000 plus RPM, I have a hell of a time seeing it I also have 6AN line from pump to carb, which is equivalent to 3/8 I think. I bought a 8AN line to replace that, which is 1/2" size, and will see if that helps. I had to use a reducer fitting on the pump to get it to feed the smaller AN line, so maybe, just maybe that bigger line from pump to carb will help.
the pump may be able to keep the pressure up without the volume, sounds stupid i know but its true. the higher and length of the rpm while pulling needs more volume. or it will feel like its surging real bad. if the new tank has a 5/16 bung and its adapted to a 3/8 thats a restriction right there. also if the tank vent is caped off not alowing the tank to vent . it will cause a va***e on the tank . not alowing the fuel to drain properly. if it has a tight sealing gas cap.
Definitely some stuff to check. Thats what happens, it surges real bad at WOT. I can cruise all day no problem, but when I lay into it real good it will cough a few times and then catch up and go.
Replacement tanks will have a 5/16" bung,3/8" line will work OK part of your problem is overall line length.To fill the needs of your stroker use the Holley blue pump as a pusher it needs to be mounted as close to the tank as possible it needs a filter between the tank and pump,DO NOT use a paper element! Summit even warns against this now,the Holley pump I had lasted about 2 hours before it ****ed in the POS Fram element and fried it.So from the electric pump forward run new 3/8" line to your manual pump along the drivers side and you should be OK.Here is a tried and true tip,get one of those universal tail pipe hangers and remove the rubber strap and use it to insulate between the frame and pump bracket also run at least 24" of 3/8" braided line from the pump to the metal line or the noise from the electric pump will drive you nuts.
I have been avoiding the elec pump do to the work, but may have to do it. I have a relay kit, where to mount and wire all that in and keep things tidy? I have a regulator with it also, I ***ume I should install that to keep the PSI close to what my carb/engine should have. So do you have to run a return line doing it this way? Just thought of this to, I mentioned its not the factory tank also. This is my "shotty" setup, hold the comments like I said I have a new factory tank, straps and all and also have a trunk floor patch panel to put in. So this is all going to be fixed. Now, I was just wondering if the way the lines go into the tank could be an issue also. Where is the bung on the new tanks, I havent looked at mine yet. I am just wondering if this could be some of the issue because the fuel line runs along the frame and then goes up into the trunk to attach to the top of the tank. Maybe if the new tank bung is on the bottom or side, it would be more gravity fed than now and work OK. I do a lot of reading at ford muscle to and many of the stroker guys there dont run electric and many swear that if your not running 500+ HP you just simply dont need an electric pump, especially on a street car. So I feel like I should be able to fix this without the elec pump, at least I guess I hope I can anyway. Not saying I do or dont, just reading all the opinions out there.
Man... I just don't see this as a fuel line diameter problem...especially since you discribe the symptoms as a "stumble" upon going WOT, and then a strong pull after that. If the motor was running out of fuel, the stumble should stay the same or get worse as the rpm rises under load...or should limit the rpm by cutting out intermittently. I'd be looking for a momentary lean condition upon quickly opening the throttle to WOT. Depending on your carb, you should be able to tune this out one way or the other. Accelerator pump shot is probably insufficient. If the motor is truly running out of fuel, I'd look for a restriction in the delivery system, somewhere that it necks down to a significantly smaller size momentarily. A kinked line, a crushed area, a step-down fitting, small fuel filter inlet, partially clogged fuel filter...something significantly smaller than 3/8" that reduces the flow. A 3/8" unrestricted line and a good mechanical pump should feed that stroker with no problems. Look elsewhere. Good luck...and let us know what you find.
thats what I am thinking to missydad. I think I will run a new line on the driver side anyway when I put the new tank in, which will shorten the overall run 2 or more feet. If nothing else just for aesthetics and a shorter cleaner run, and probably use stainless. I will say this, since running this motor I have used (not for this problem, just for testing) 2 different distributors (HEI, now duraspark with MSD box and coil) 2 different carbs (Speed Demon first, now custom holley by Pro Sys) 2 different intakes (victor jr, now RPM Air Gap I have also used no carb spacer, 4 hole spacer, and a open 1" spacer The results have been the same with all parts, virtually no difference. I basically ease out in first gear and punch it, runs like a top. Shift to second and nail it, stumble, stumble, then plants you in your seat, until I shift to 3rd and nail it again. I will just feel like I am not spinning my wheels once I get the new tank and all that in place because the tank in there now was from who knows what, its been in the car since 94, its had the neck cut off and welded on a new one to fit the ford, and I had it acid washed about a year ago and he had to fix some rust and pinholes. So once I get a fresh setup in there it will be easier to troubleshoot I think knowing its all new from tank to carb.
Contact the carb builder and tell them what you've got going on. Holleys have a "programable" accelerator pump which uses a plastic "cam" to set the curve. You may just need a different one than was installed on your carb by the builder. WOT may not allow the accelerator pump reservoir to refill until you lift. When you nail it again immediately, the reservoir may be nearly empty and not able to give the shot the motor requires. Holley also offers large volume accellerator pumps which may also be needed. Had a similar problem...off idle stumble...with the Holley on my Buick/SBC combo. A change of cam solved it...and really woke the motor up off the line. Amazing the restorative power of a little shot of the right stuff at the right time! Good luck!
Yeah I will do that once I get back on the road, still down right now working on headers/exhaust. When I call he will want to play with it on the car, which I cant do right now. Mine has the pink cams in it now
I just got to thinking, I wonder if I could remove the current line from the p*** side and move it over to the driver side without having to re-bend a new one. the current one is 3/8 steel and its in perfect shape and everything I read anywhere says 3/8 is plenty up to 400-500 HP and I am under that range. I would have to cut a bit off the ends to make it correct there, but just wondering if I could ***ume the frame rail is the same on both sides. I guess if nothing else as long as its the same (other than the tank/pump ends) I could use it as a template to do a new one. I have access to all the 3/8 stainless tubing I need for the job, but heard its a bear to bend. My uncle could also take the old line to his shop and bend the stainless tubing identical to the old one on their fancy equipment..hmmm
Just curious about one thing , I see you have a double pumper . Have you ever tried just a single pump ? I have had more problems with double pumper except on big cube engines . Sounds like you are getting too much fuel into the secondaries and is stalls till it burns the fuel off . What side jets are in the secondaries , do you know ? Now this only happened when you stop on it , right ? Are the secondaries mechanical or vacuum . What carb are you use as in size ? Jim
Jim, you may remember this thread http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=14298 Used 2 carbs, demon and holley both. Same deal. This is a custom built carb with spec sheet and all, 780 cfm. I have free carb trouble support, but I dont think its in the carb, just from trying multiple ones and nothing changes.
I still think you've mis-diagnosed your problem. If it was running out of fuel it would do it on long bursts of WOT operation, not just at the instant you crack the throttle open and then recover. Just because two carbs behaved the same way does not prove your theory. The symptoms you discribe just don't fit. Its far more likely that it's taking a big gulp of air when you crack the throttle and going momentarily lean...in my humble opinion. If it were running out of fuel it would run strong at WOT until the bowls emptied. It would then go into a prolonged lean miss until you backed out of the throttle and let the fuel pump catch up. But that's not what is happening, at least as I understand your statement of the symptoms. I'd look for a failure in the accelerator pumps and/or power valves. Or, cracking mechanical secondaries open too quickly will give you a momentary bog. This is the condition that carburetors with vacuum-operated secondaries overcomes. I don't mean to be pushy, but I hate to see you struggle changing out the fuel line only to have the same problem after you're done. An unobstructed 3/8 fuel line should be able to carry plenty of fuel for your stroker.
There is no doubt I have mis-diagnosed the issue lol. I guess all I am getting at is I have used 2 different carbs, each having different pump cams, different jet sizes, and one being a mechanical secondary and one being a vacuum secondary. They did both have the same size power valve though. With all those things changed and having the same result, it makes me want to look elsewhere. Maybe I am wrong though I dunno. What you say makes sense. I am all for your solutions, they are easier than mine. I need to get the exhaust done so I can play with it some more.
OK I have just looked over your set up and that is a lot for a street car . That is really a better set up for a drag car and those are going to be some of the issues you are going to have with a cam that big . Doesn't that cam RPM start around 2500 to 3000 rpms ? With an engine like that is toy are using a C4 then the converter should be up around 3500 stall or even a little more depending on your rear gears . If a clutch you will probably be better punching the gas when it's been in second gear . I believe with the engine set up you have , it's just giving you issues at low RPM's and that's the nature of the beast . The engine is ****ing a lot more air than the fuel mixture it need so it's starving until the rpms start to increase and by then the carb is now pumping enough fuel into the carb . Honestly I would start with a much bigger accelerator pump to give that first shot a larger dose of fuel ! I am just guessing on the trans set up and gears you have in your car . That will also play in the set up . Jim
Jim I have a 3.70 gear trac lok in a 9" rear. I have a TKO 600 trans (manual, 5 spd) built to take 600 ft pounds of torque. http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/tr-3550.html I didnt want to be tearing up transmissions so I got a dandy. The engine was custom built for a street car. The cam was custom ground and all spec'd out by jay allen, (camshaftinnovations.com) very popular in the ford boards. It was all built around a 5 spd, 3.73 gears and the heads and valve train were matched around it by the builder. The only thing I did different to the engine other than what it was built for is run carb, and it was built for EFI. Thats why the lobe seperation is 114 vs. a 110. As for my setup, I frequent ford muscle and others and many of them are running much bigger street engines as daily drivers, but yes it is much more than stock for sure. Those guys are stroking 351's to 408 and pushing 500HP and driving all over the place. I dont have any trouble in low rpm it will "**** and get". Off the line no problem. I only have problems when revvin up to 5-6000 rpm, shift and punch it. Otherwise it runs like a top. Now last time I drove it i was cruising in 4th gear about 45MPH. I downshifted to 2nd, nailed it, it planted me, didnt miss a beat. So my point there is that it seems to only happen when I am in the HIGH rpms and shifting. But I have never had it do that while in the same gear. Like first gear from 0-5000rpm no problems, but when I shift and punch it, hesitation..after slight hesitation it will run on up to 5-6k, shift, hesitate I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, just trying to provide details.
As a side note Jay Allen heads up the www.sbftech.com website there is tons of knowledge on small block Windsors available there.CAUTION! Read ,read,read as much as you can when you are there and you will learn a lot,these guys are ******** Ford and may come down on you hard if you ask questions with nothing to back it up,if your feelings get hurt easily,you have been warned.
No prob Jeff, I go there all the time. I actually bought the engine from a guy on that board. Actually Woody from fordstrokers.com owns the sbftech website also, but him and Jay are partners in crime, least the best I can tell. Jay does (or did) most of his cam grinds. I have talked to Woody and Jay on the phone a while back when finishing the build of this motor, which was all new and unfinished at the time.
Todd , Thanks for all the details . That does answer a lot of questions . You do have a mean *** set up for sure and I really don't think the lobe separation for a EFI has anything to do with it . I have build engines for guys that were EFI engines and they stuck on intakes and carbs with no problems so I wouldn't consider that at all . I don't think it's the fuel line at all . It has to do with the secondaries when you nail it not getting the burst of fuel you need at that split second , thus hesitation . Have you tried a bigger set of jets in the secondaries yet ? Also try a different accelerator pump First . You need to get that shot of fuel into the secondaries faster than what you are getting now . You could also adjust the rod for a faster shot of fuel too . Was there anything that you have done to the Holley that either made it a little better or worst ? A Friend and I build a nice 347 for a guy to drag race with and use on the street for the weekends . We had some similar problems . the first was the distributor . Once that was fixed then it was the damn Holley's . We tried different jet sizes and set ups and the bad thing was a common 600 ran great but no top end due to fuels . Did the 750 , 780 , 1050 . So a friend told use he had some similar problems so we went a different way . We used this Jegs Item# 793-Q-750 Quick fuel carb 750 . Made a world of difference but these aren't cheap . If you know of anyone that is using one ask them if you can try it . The engine idles great and when you hit it , it went with no problems or hesitation at all . We had a rear C4 with 4.10 . I still say work with the accelerator pump and maybe try some bigger jets but not both at the same time . Jim
Jeff, I have taken a couple of vids but the camera ****s and the vids do to. I am looking at new ones right now that have better mic's so soon! I am going to strap it to the visor and take yall for a ride to. Jim thanks for taking the time to help out. You and missydad are on the same track so I will start there. Actually I will be calling up Pro Sys, they have good support I hear, just havent used it yet cause I figured the problems were elsewhere. I know quickfuel, seen them around. I have $700 in my pro sys setup, so I know what you mean about not cheap. its a holley hp 4150 series car which aint cheap just off the shelf, then of course he builds them his way. The carb is awesome, no choke but the car cranks and idles effortlessly after sitting for 2 weeks. Throttle response is unreal. Still working on the exhaust, once done I am gonna drive it and talk to them to see if we can tune the carb out of these problems.
The 4150 are damn good carbs . Used Them many times in drag racing . The trick is the set up and once you get them dialed in , they are set ! Good Luck with the tinkering on the Holley . It will come around but just don't get frustrated . Just walk away and come back later . Jim
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