Need help, ford banjo torque specs?

I am rebuilding the banjo in my coupe, and putting in 3:54 gears while I am at it.

But I cannot find the torque specs for the ring gear nuts and the banjo to the bells.

I read the great tech post in the tech section on reassembling the rear and setting the preloads and pinion lash,

but I didn't find information for when you are pressing on the pinion bearings and the double race, how far do you press on the second bearing, as this seems like it will be setting the preload on these bearings.

anyhow any help would be very appreciated.

 

I will probably use the standard torque values for the size bolts

but would prefer some more info, and any one know about safety wiring the nuts on the ring gear? is the safety wire something special, or can I use
bailing wire? it sure seemed like bailing wire on there.

thanks

 

Re the pinion assy- MoToRs (1948) says: "After pressing on the rear bearing so that it bears against the pinion head, install the front bearing against the rear bearing, being sure the tapers face each other. The bearing sleeve may then be bressed into position. Install the adjusting and lock nuts,with the lock washer between them, and tighten them so that the sleeve turns on the bearing cones with a heavy drag and no end play.(Then it goes on to describe how to assemble the loaded pinion gear assembly into the banjo housing.)"

Ford's Chassis Repair Manual says it a little differently. "Preassemble the pinion assembly but tighten the adjusting nut just enough to hold the bearings in place. Install the loaded assembly into the banjo housing (using heat) then after cooling adjust the bearing load so that the drag between bearings and sleeve is 15-20 inch pounds."

In neither case is the torque on the ring gear screws mentioned.

 

thank you very much Dale,

that is very helpfull, I have several motors manuals, but none that go back
far enough. thanks again

On a seperate issue, I am cleaning and inspecting everything and noticed the
spider gears have a copper like surface showing through in some spots.

my instincts tell me this is not good, I would figure the hardened surface has worn away, and since I am replacing all the bearings and seals that are bad, and installing new ring and pinion, it seems like I should replace the spider
gears if that copper is a sign of wear.

thanks for any help

 

There aren't any original torque specs on these things that I have ever found--as noted by Dale, the nut closest to pinion is the adjuster, and gets tightened til drag on pinion is correct, second nut is a locknut and both are retained by that washer lock, so here just good'n'tight should be fine. Pinion drive, adjusted after all is pressed into banjo, is listed as 12-17 inch pounds.
Banjo to axle bolts don't have any known spec...but be aware that threads in case are class three fit to prevent leakage (I think that's the correct terminology, anyhow bolts are standard, threads in banjo are extra deep) and should not be cleaned with any normal tap. Torque allowance using a regular spec by bolt size might be a bit too loose due to drag of threads...they are a bit hard to turn when right.
I think copper is not wearing through, but is surviving! I think copper was plated on there before surface hardening heat treat to prevent carbon inclusion in surface during the treatment--I don't know anything about this, but some steering gears and cams were done this way. If they aren't loose, use them.

 

thank you bruce,

I was hoping you would see this.

So if I understand you correctly, the copper was the outer surface, is wearing through to the hardened steel?

It sure seems like the copper was under the hardened steel, but if I would trust anyone telling me to run them, I guess it would be you.

thanks again.

 

On the gears, study the wear pattern and compare the area that is obviously polished or worn with adjacent areas for contour--obviously, if there's a real dip or gouge, toss them. Match any new ones carefully, as there were 2 different tooth counts changing somewhere around '38 and of course different axles to match...
The only use of copper here I can think of is to keep carbon away from surface during heat treatment...carbon would excessively harden the surface wherever it combined and could potentially allow surface failure in gears. I've seen the copper on B cams and steering gears, but only on some. I think the copper showing may be the unworn spots, not the worn. Where's the HAMB metallurgist??

 

I know this is an old thread, but this is the only thread that comes close to answering my questions using the search tool. I'm getting ready to assemble my Halibrand quickchange and side bells using some original style bolts from Roy Nacewicz, and I'm not sure what to torque the sidebell fasteners to.

Redbeard - what did you torque your sidebells to?

Bruce - what would you recommend? I'm wondering how much to differ since I'm threading into aluminum also.....

 

There are no stock specs, and in the original iron banjo torque would have been inaccurate anyway since the extra-deep threads in the casting create a lot of extra drag. No experience with aluminum...and I'd better find out, since I now have a QC in the parts dump and a Halibrand mag center as well! I would tend to go with generic torque specs for the size of the bolts. I run the stockers pretty tight, probably in excess, but that is a stronger pile of parts. Need some input here from experienced racers who have used an destruction tested aluminum QC's! I know some ran through-studs even. My tendency without experienced input would be to run studs with loctite to thoroughly anchor the fasteners in the aluminum, and torque to generic fastener specs (and I'd cheat to a little above that).
Grading of studs probably utterly irrelevant since aluminum would pull out first (remember that many roadracer types helicoil all threads into aluminum or magnesium from new for greater strength), but I might well track down aircraft or other high strength parts anyway.

Copper...haven't seen it on rear end parts but have seen it on a minority (probably multiple suppliers) of '32 steering gears and on some B cams. As I noted, I believe it was put on unfinished parts to exclude carburizing of the surface during heat treatment and then the final gear or lobe cutting removed it on the fully machined surfaces. It is also recommended on some aftermarket Ford working, like retempering trans gears to softer for dragster use.