Technical Need some help on Dodge 440 engine balancing please

Hi folks - thanks in advance for some coaching here. Full disclosure, I am asking about my Jensen Interceptor which has a Dodge 440 engine and A727 transmission. Normally you worry about the English bits, but sure enough my 440 imploded.

I found a replacement 440 from a local builder for a reasonable price and off I went, or so I thought. The replacement engine has a cast crank. My original engine was a forged crank.

The engine came with a dampener that was hitting the timing cover, so the dampener came back off, went to the engine rebuilder who then returned the dampener who shaved the weight down. The dampener doesn't hit the timing cover now but I have an engine vibration from around 1000 -1300 RPM. Ugh.

That leads to a couple questions that I am hoping to get some sage advice / knowledge on;

1) Is there a way to get the weight on the dampener right short of pulling the engine out?
2) Related to #1, I am ***uming the external weight on the dampener is unique to a specific engine build, correct?
3) Do I need to be thinking about the torque converter in all of these as it was set up for a forged crank but I am now running a cast crank?

Thanks, trying to avoid the engine shaking itself to bits.

 

The cast crank B/RB were all external balance. They had a weighted harmonic balancer and a weighted torque converter.

They can be internally balanced, you have to bring the pistons and rods complete to the balancer and ideally the flex plate and harmonic balancer.

If the engine was using the correct harmonic balancer it should have not needed to be shaved. You can set them too deep by the way. I have no idea how much was shaved from the balancer but that was a bad idea.

 

Unless theres a big *** hole in the block, you should have rebuilt the original 440. Benno is on the money, and that balancer is now a paper weight. Honestly, I cant believe how out to lunch some automotive machinists are now... Even if he doesnt know **** all about BB Mopars, how can any supposed professional be stupid enough to think he can machine a balance pad off a balancer??

 

Thanks for the responses - seems clear the builder cut a corner.

Should I demand he be responsible for taking the engine out and doing it right? I paid a shop to the r&r on the old engine so in addition to having an unusable engine I am now also looking at those r&r costs being wasted, plus the costs of doing it all over again. Ugh.

 

I am going to give you the response my ol' man would have given and since I am bent on carrying on an old family tradition it would be my response as well. Remove the bad balancer, take it to the builder shove it so far up his *** that it makes his eyes bug out and demand that he give you a new proper balancer for the engine. take that one home and install it yourself as he obviously is not capable.

Your simplest repair to the motor would be to install the proper balancer, if it will not fit you are going to have to determine why it won't fit. if you do not have a weighted converter you will have to install one of those as well. I would probably not be comfortable taking my stuff back to the original guy but that is your choice.

 

Do you still have the original engine?

Can you post a picture of the damper that's on the car, so we can see how it was machined?

 

the cast balancer is twice the thickness of the steel crank balancer. make sure you have the right one regardless of what he told you. as for hitting the cover the bone head may have forgotten to put the oil slinger on. the slinger would move the balancer away from the cover. I would feel very uncomfortable with this builder. my gut feeling is the converter is wrong. the old engine was a better choice to rebuild as mentioned above.

 

^^Bingo, this ****ing CLOWN has no business working on a Briggs & Stratton. If he was inside the motor, its teardown time.
And yes, I was already thinking the same thing, check the converter for a balance weight, if this guy doesnt have enough sense to know why theres an extra chunk of offset metal on a balancer, he SURE AS HELL isnt smart enough to add the balance weights to the converter.
I wouldn't let him anywhere near it, cut your losses and take it to someone who knows what the hell hes doing. And post the shops name, so others will know to stay the hell away.

 

and if it seems like this kind of **** gets my ******* in a knot, well, your right.

 

Do you think the outer ring on the balancer has slid back to rub?
The slinger could not be very thick.

And yes George I understand but all we can hope to be is human.
I do own up to my mistakes.
But it always make wounder what led up to the mistake that someone else has made.

 

Your biggest mistake that you have ever made in your entire life was feeding me, you'll never keep me out of your pit ever now.

I have managed to screw a lot of things up in my time which is why I almost always have s solution for a problem. I have managed to keep the screw-ups on other peoples stuff to a minimum and have never screwed something up that I didn't find the problem and cure it before I was done.

A machinist worth his salt would be allover making that 440 right, and doing it without grumbling about what it cost him to do so.

 

Hi guys - thank you very much for the responses and coaching.

I agree that I should of rebuilt the old one at this point, hindsight is both clear and painful, but I did buy an engine from a professional shop with a warranty so not like I just pulled some random guy of Craigslist.

It seems pretty clear that there is now easy way of addressing this short from pulling it all.

***uming I need to drop the transmission to check the converter and see what was done?

I hope the builder will take responsibility for this, but not expecting it to be easy based on the pulling teeth I had to do on the damper clearance issue.

 

That's how I own up
When I make mistakes it will most always take someone with more wits about them to help me out.
So I am always throwing out bate.

I had one of those steel crank 440s out of a crashed car but never got to that dream.
Sold it and saved a 400 block. I like the larger bore on it and you can swing a big crank if wanted.

 

Ahhh, the Jensen Interceptor. I worked at Hollywood Sport Cars when they were new. We probably sold your car. I was friends with the late Norm Fuller, who started the JIOC. They are great cars but, yes, the British bits can be troublesome. They used to burst into flames regularly. I still have some Jensen sales literature in my stash.

 

Well, looks like I have two potential issues. Just talked to the shop that installed the engine and they did NOT balance the torque converter. They put the old one back on from the forged crank engine...

Oh boy.

Thanks again for the help here guys, I'm kind of in a bad spot having paid professionals to make sure this sort of thing did not happen and am not exactly swimming in money to fix it (having spent it on the professional shops).

 

Wow, cool! They do tend to run a bit warm, yes.

 

You don't have to pull the engine. You can replace the harmonic balancer, and the torque converter with the engine in the car.

In typical Chrysler fashion, there may be a balance weight the size of a box of matches spot welded to the torque converter. That tells you it is externally balanced.

 

I should add that the transmission must be removed for flywheel access. In your case it may be necessary to remove engine and trans as a unit to do this, if there is not enough room to remove the trans in the car.

 

Hi - thanks for the note. In my case, of course (my luck at this point) the engine has to come out to drop the transmission. No getting off easy...

 

If there is room you should be able to fine someone that could weld the weight on the converter.
Balancer change may not be fun it has been sometime since I have worked on one of them.

 

It is possible to buy the weight from your local Chrysler dealer and weld it on the torque converter with it in the car, if you can get at it from the bottom. The tricky bit would be getting it in the right place.

I suggest you check first to see if there is a weight on the torque converter, it may just be the harmonic balancer in which case the engine does not have to come out.

 

Hi - thanks for the response.

I was actually wondering if there would be access via an inspection plate. That still presents the question of how much weight and where...

 

Just look up spec on the one for the engine would be in a converter book.
May have to go through the starter hole for more room but there is a small plate on the bottom for the converter bolts.

 

there would be no room with the inspection cover removed to do the welding. the slinger would move the balancer about .035. some thing to check is the timing. the crank, balancer and timing cover fit the entire rb family regardless of year. there can be problems when mixing parts not from the same engine. it can make tuning a headache. at tdc the timing can be retarded 10 degrees. if this happens the balancer will need a new tdc mark. a piston stop can help take care of this. obviously this guy doesn't know mopars who knows what else he did. i have put countless rb engines together. i have never had a balancer hit a front cover.

 

with the that thick cast balancer don't be surprised if your pullies don't line up.

 

Does your torque convertor have a drainplug? If it does then there would be a small weight on each side of the drainplug. I'm not sure of the size but any transmission shop should be able to get that information from their convertor builder.

 

I have the specs for the torque converter weight, I will find it and post it.Call me a hard-***, but for a so-called engine rebuilder to machine the counterwieght out of a balancer, and not even stop and think for a moment as to why it was there in the first place doesn't quite rate as "oh well we are all human, we make mistakes". Its INDESCRIBABLY stupid. If you went to your Dr. for an appendectomy, and he took out a kidney, would that be "oh well, I'm human"?? I mean hell, you have two of them right, whats the big deal?? There has to be SOME sort of standard of professionalism even for the Post Sesame-Street, I'm ok, your ok" generation. Sweet jesus!

Edit: Sorry, I only have it for sticks. the weight will be the same, but the position of the weight is critical.

 

This goes beyond not knowing Mopars. Lots of fords and a few chevies are externally balanced too. The thing that really gets my goat is that a so-called "engine rebuilder" did this without stopping and asking himself why it was there in the first place!!!! I dont see "being a Mopar guy" as a prerequisite for common sense.

 

I'm just saying beyond being stupid the guy doesn't know the finer details of a mopar.

 

Sorry if I went on a rant guys, it just gets my goat when I see something like this. Dont people even stop and think anymore? To put so much effort into royally screwing something up...