Technical Need Source for Heavy Duty Tie Rod and Drag link tubing

Hi everyone. I have a couple projects going. 27 and 31 Tudors. I have Speedway 0.880" od tube tie rod and drag links. They are approximately 48". We have issues with death wobble. My concern is the rigidity of this tubing. Where are you guys getting better tubes? I need 5/8-18 threads on ends for heim joints.

Thanks In Advance

 

Don't you think that you should find the cause and fix the "death wobble"?

 

Researching on the forum it is stated if the tubing isn't robust enough, oscillations can occur causing it. The tubing speedway sells can be bent vertically when pushing and pulling on the center. My thought was that is exactly what I am attempting to do

 

I went to ebay and ordered my tube. I believe it was 1-1/8" heavy wall. I ordered 2 heavy bugs, put them in a lathe and turned them down to just a easy press fit into the dom tube then welded them in.

This is on my 31 tudor and there is absolutely no flex in the tie rod at all period.

I used regular tie rod ends as I prefer them over heim joints especially on tie rod linkage.

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Done 100's of chassis with US made 7/8th 156 wall DOM seamless tube with good quality tie rod ends with no problems. On my own cars I always use a steering stabilizer just because I like how it absorbs some of the road feedback. They are Poo Pooed on here but I don't care. I'd***** can the heim joints and get back to good quality US made tie rod ends. This ain't no race car it's a light weight street car.

 

Ditch the heim joints, use tie rod ends. Also death wobble can be caused by much more than a deflecting tie rod tube, if you're running a solid axle my first place to check is the toe setting then how tight the king pin bushings are if the toe is good.

 

if your king pin distance is the same as 35-40 ford at 48 ish inches
you can run a stock SOLID drag link, if you can find the sae 11/16-18 die you could nicely shorten it
even if its 47 .25 on the centres, you can nibble the tie rods down some and it still goes in, albeit you still need to leave a thread for fine tuning
IF you happen to have a low oil pan
the same applies, BUT you can use a 40-41 truck drag link, BUT the passenger side steering arm will have the taper the other way up,,
so finding 40/41 ford spindles from a 1/2 ton in the right hand drive is impossible

makes it appear more stoock

then you ask the question.. why doesnt anyone use them when starting from scratch = expensive, and IF the long side ball wears, you need replace the entire lot = $150

DRAG LINK & Tie Rod end Kit 1935-41 Ford Cars & Pickups 11Y-3306-KIT | eBay

damn and darn it =
ok when you get a stock one, the seals for the ball joints are rimply a rubber cone with a concave washer sitting atop of them, if you like unsealed
now, take a closer look at the above listing, the tie rod ends are in fact sealed
AND the boots on thedrag link 'APPEAR' to be the modern style with boots that have the circular wire spring to seal.
do you see the difference between the first picture - simply a rubber washer almost and a metal washer to squeeze.

going out on a limb... my reconing is that the drag link isn't 11/16-18 or what ever the early ford is. but it matters not

the tie rods listed 'look' like the moog ones, when you order them from the on-line, you get the ones that are not sealed, which is a ball ache

 

Question, does the ball joint tie rod end absorb the defections caused by road surfaces? I know the heims are pretty much solid. My 27 has about 10k miles on it and only recently after an axle bent did I have the issues. It seems fine now with a replacement beam (1939 suspension). The 31 is a new build and on rough roads it has the wobble about 20mph, nowhere else. The king pins are brand new and the needle bearing style so all is nice and tight. Toe was measured again last night at 1/8 toe in.

 

Pictures please.

 

I like your way of thinking. Back in the middle 70's, Street Rodder magazine had an article on adapting, I think, a Volkswagen steering dampener to a straight axle. Used one on a 3w I was building.

 

Thinking about this, adding a stabilizer will support the bar at the mounting point giving the effect of a shorter bar also helping with oscillations due to the spring effect of the long bar in addition to the shock dampening of the shock itself. What stabilizer are you using? The VW retrofit? Do you have pictures of it mounted and the OEM application?

 

If you have access to a lathe, just buy some DOM tubing and drill and tap the ends as needed. As mentioned, 7/8" OD .156" wall is commonly used, but .188" is available if you want overkill. I prefer direct threading over welded bungs for this application.

 

This is what I use. A lathe is nice, but if you don't have one, a floor model drill press with a table that rotates to vertical will suffice. That heavy wall dom is just under 1/2 inch id. What I've done is line the tube up with a half inch bit to the chuck, clamp it solid, and then drill to the tap drill size for either 5/8-18 or 11/16-18. Then start the tap without removing it from the drill press to get it started square. Finish by hand. Yeah lots more effort than a lathe, but you got to do what you got to do...

 

You don't state where you live, but something you might want to check on is if Heim joints are street legal for your state. If you log onto the Heim joint website, it mentions that in some states they are not legal for street use. You could have issues with your insurance also.

 

What is your caster set at? I’ve had success setting the toe to “0”

 

I don't recall seeing anything from SEMA about alleged legality concerning helm ( clerical rod ends) on the street ?
Anecdotal evidence , the heims on my T have over 50k trouble free miles over a 22 year period .
Most T's use heim ends , many circle track racers use heims as do many off road rock climbers .
FWIW , the steering wobble problems I've encountered over the last 25 years have been tire related .

 

There is some info in there that would have been important to mention earlier, a hit strong enough to bend an axle very likely caused something else to be bent as well, all of your geometry needs to be checked out. However it sounds like the '31 vehicle experiencing the issue and that did not suffer an impact.

I would still check out a few other things before you start replacing anything. First off is the caster measurement with all 4 wheels on the ground and take a reading of the caster angle in relation to the ground not the frame or any other nearby flat surfaces. Then also verify that the steering gear box lash is correct and in spec for the box, you want as little play as possible in every area from the steering wheel to the road wheels. You can also jounce the front suspension and watch the steering wheel, if it moves that means there is bump steer happening as well. All of the little things add up to a big problem as you are experiencing.

The reason I and others had recommended to go with tie rods is that they are built for steering systems. Yes heims can work but they feel like a more universal application type part, I have them on my rear links to control the rear axle but I would not put them in a steering application. Every mass produced car you see on the road has tie rods to actuate the wheels that steer. Most heims cannot be greased and have nothing to keep dust and dirt out of them either.

I have experience with the bearing supported kingpins through my job, they use them on some of our tractors. I am...not a fan, they don't last, I would check them for play every time you change the oil to make sure they are still tight and grease them regularly. As soon as the bearings start to wiggle it gets worse the more the kingpin hammers on them. I recently pulled the bronze bushings out of my spindles that were installed almost two decades ago and they were still tight. I only pulled them so I could heat and bend the steering arms on my spindles to correct the angle of them. Curious to see what you find, if everything checks out then you could always get some DOM tube and make what you need if nothing is readily available.

 

Agree that you should check if adjusting toe resolves the situation. before making any other modifications. Could be a free and easy solution waiting for you to try it out.

Solved it for me wirh a death wobble between 45-55 mph that would damn near rip the wheel out of your hands when I first got my rpu on the road.

 

There is a temp ., way to check the flex . Slide a piece of black iron ( steel pipe ) over the current tie rod , take a ride a see if the your issue is still present .

 

Speedway has it

 

So I lowered the air pressure from 33 to 25 but haven't tried it again due to other stuff needing attention. Toe is 1/8 in and caster is 8⁰. It only wobbles about 20mph on a bumpy road. It can easily be driven through but if you stay right there it is bad. Good idea on sleeving the tie rod and drag links, I will try that.

As for the 27 bent axle, yeah that was strange. Super bumpy road on the way home from a show. Started shaking, not wobble. Got home and it looked possibly bent. Really unsure. Replaced it with another OEM 39 axle and rides perfect again.

I am personally up in the air with the tie rod ends vs heim joints. Heims will wear quicker due to dirt, but they are more solid and zero play. OEM did't use them a due to the harshness of the road feel. Also why they used rubber bushings and such. Modern cars are eliminating it in other ways. Knock on wood, the heims I have been using in the 27 for the last 6 years are still tight.

 

Still no pics? They are worth a thousand words you know.

 

I use the steering stabilizer on my 32 also, I love it. our interstate here has a grooved concrete surface and it's just enough to tighten up the system.

 

Local steel supplier should be able to get/or have what you want. Bought all my tubing to build our
lakester locally.

 

If you really want to overbuild your steering this place should have whatever parts you need to build it. https://www.ruffstuffspecialties.co...set=0&Offset=0&Per_Page=20&Sort_By=disp_order

They have Heim and tie rod kits that are cut to fit.

But I highly doubt that will solve your issues.

 

Not sure you guys would like his car. Most traditional guys have fits, but here it is.

I did lower the tire pressure from 33ish to 25. 80% gone. Still just a bit.

As for the tie rod and drag link bars, I don't like the flex of the current bars so I ordered 1.125X.120 DOM to sleeve what I have and see how if fairs. Got it from Stockcarsteel.com I would hate to have it buckle with major WI pot holes.

It is a reversed Corvair box. Only have driven it about 10 miles so far but it is getting sorted out.

 

I see that your steering is ahead of the axle. Did you bend the steering arms to reset Ackerman? Not normally a death wobble issue, but certainly a handling and tire wear issue. The corvair box has been used in many applications, but once you get heavier than a T bucket it's a bit on the lite side. Especially since you are concerned about pot holes. And yes, your choice of how to make a new tie rod could have been a better one.

 

Okay, I'm not going to comment on that type of build, but straight away I can see forward facing steering arms, which I suspect have totally cancelled out the Ackerman geometry in the steering. Look it up, it's been discussed and explained many times here.

Bottom line is, you can't just face the arms forward to conveniently make that kind of front end work.

This is why it's important to show the subject in question - the front suspension and steering. (We don't really need to see the whole car.) A view from in front/above of the front end would be good.

 

Thank you guys for all the help.

Small vent.... I knew there would be issues with the build. It is what we like and can afford at this time. I love all hot rods, rat rods, race builds, muscle cars, etc. Nothing in a nicely built rat rod that isn't on a traditional build. Engine choices, period parts, paint, etc. In my eyes, the original hot rods were what we are building now. Like this. Taking what we have and making it work. Nothing more than is what needed to work. No extra junk, hokey stuff, nothing just cobbled together, just a car. Maybe we have just came to the wrong place for this type of build. I see where someone buys a 34 ford and chops it up for a lakes inspired car and get cheers. We build a model a from scratch with what we have and enjoy, and people are upset. Venting done. I hope we can all be friends.

We did not bend the arms out for the correct Akerman. I don't know where it is Akerman wise but I do have steering arms that will get me close if I switch to the top of the spindle. Gets them as close to the tire as possible. I understand the concept and have to take some liberties.

 

What is meant by this? And yes, your choice of how to make a new tie rod could have been a better one. If it is about sleeving it, that was meant as a temporary trial. I can easily make the bungs for the ends of of the new tube if all seems ok.