A friend of mine and I feel we need to start a new sanctioning body for out style of drag racing (outlaw/nostalgic). I know some of the other Missouri boys have discussed it but I can't remember who. The idea is to be able to run more nolstagia style drag races without the NHRA style cost and interference. Don't get me wrong here. We're not talking about running an unsafe race with unsafe cars, jut more vintage style race with more vintage style cars without the NHRA hassle. Frankly, I don't know where to start, so I'm putting out this feeler for information and ideas. r
Unless you become an NHRA approved "Alternate Sanctioning Organization" you won't be able to sanction any event at an NHRA track. I'm not sure how the IHRA handles it, but it's probably a similar deal. Otherwise, the cars will have to pass the general safety rules of either organization. The other solution is to run at tracks not sanctioned by any of the "HRAs". If you're going to sanction your own event, your group needs to be insurable, and that becomes much easier if you're an A.S.O. As for becoming an A.S.O., been there-done that, and it's not a quick and easy thing to do...but it is free. Dave
Good luck! We need Vintage drags, followed by Vintage Nascar, and vintage Dirt. Then, maybe they'll get some $$ from me!
Not to be a wet blanket, but I don't really understand what it'll do. If the idea is to not have as stringent safety rules; won't it be hard to get track owner/operators to buy off on it? They're the ones who'd be sued. If it's not a question of dodging safety rules (cages, etc.) in the name of historical accuracy, why not just run against other like-minded individuals. Like the ones on the H.A.M.B. Once again, I'm not trying to be dense; I'm just trying to see what the reason for a new sanctioning body would be. -bill
I don't think the fellas kickin' this around need any body's permission to run a sanctioning body and there are a ton of non-sanctioned tracks around. The idea is to be able to run without the hassle of dollar domination. At least that's what I have heard. Car farmer there is one HAMB drags a year. There are a lot of fellas on the HAMB for instance that have dedicated race cars and when they are not running at the HAMB drags they are running at races all mixed together with the hot rod neons etc and if its a competition they are bracket racing not running heads up. Oh and by the way not directed at anyone in particular I don't think the Raven asked for anybodies cash. I'm not even sure what that is all about. It appears as though he was asking for advice or maybe he was trying to see if anyone like minded would be interested in setting up a few races here and there. Personally if some sort of a venue was set up for pure traditional drag racing I might work a little harder on my car. There's just something about a rule book that says my car has to be presentable and then being pretty vague about what is considered presentable, or that mufflers are not required unless the track officials at a certain track decide they are that is a deterrent to me.
I hear ya, p&bn'r. I think the sanctioning body deal is self-defeating in this case, because in order for NHRA to approve you, they have to go along with whatever "rules" you have in place. They're not likely to approve anything too far off their own rules, especially the safety rules (chassis, roll cages, bell housings, clutches, etc. etc. etc.) and then you're back to where you didn't want to be.
I don't think anyone would have a problem with the majority of the saftey rules. An FED for instance can still carry the nostalgic look and feel and hit on the bulk fo the rules in not all of them, some of the safety rules in them selves are a little vague and one inspector will let it pass while another will not. Even if there was a '64 cut off date which is pretty much where we all live scatter sheilds and parachutes were being used. The rules were a little looser back then but saftey was still a concern. I think at least where I'm commin' from if I were to race in some new improved organization is that I'm not really interested in rules that keep me from competeing or being competetive. Lets assume that I got luckey with my combo and coaxed a car into the 9s. But I just didn't happen to have aftermarket axles. Now I got to come up with another 2-400 bucks just to make the next race. So I'm out for the season because I don't happen to have a big sponsor or a big check book. Granted that probably won't happen but it is a possibility.
I think I understand exactly what you're looking for Raven--something like the first couple of years of the Goodguys nostalgia racing? East Coast Gassers has a set of rules that I find very attractive. Must pass NHRA tech rules (which, let's face it, were usually put into place AFTER someone proved the need: ie, got hurt real bad). I don't think anyone really thinks it's a good idea to do away with scatter shields, chutes on cars that need them, and less roll cage tubing because "it looks too new." (My uncle got his helmet wedged in the bars during a horrific roll-over back in the day, and was in a coma for three weeks...he's one of the reasons there are more bars on the cockpit of a dragster). I think we're looking for nostalgic LOOKING cars; no billet or modern wheels, no wings, no wild modern paint jobs, no 200-inch long FED chassis cars with side wings... Check out East Coast Gassers. Some of their rules are No aero body mods, no wings, no modern paint, period-correct wheels only, no nitrous, no delay boxes/optical sensors/data acquisition, no mufflers, cars must be named and lettered, class must be permanently on car (A/G, B/G, etc), limited to 6:71 blower, mechanical injection or carbs, no four-link rears, etc. There aren't enough cars to race heads-up, so they dial in. That's the one thing I don't like about it, but when you only have 30 cars at an event, it's pretty hard to break that down into several different classes. What would be very cool would be to incorporate their rules into a nostalgia gasser class, and make similar rules for a 120-inch or 140-inch wheel base FED class, an under 300cid FED class, incorporate the HA/GR class, etc. Then you'd have to organize the races for them to meet at...that takes a bunch of time, and money. Plus, you can lose your ass if you have an event rained out. I have a friend who tried it with Alcohol races. Went under. It might work to organize a "Federation" of existing organizations, and host events for them centrally located so member from each organization can come and run to your rules. But base most of your rules off what they've already got in place. For instance, it'd be great to include a class for nostalgia super stockers. No wild paint schemes, NHRA rules, cut-off date at 1966. That'll keep out the really heavy hitter muscle cars, but let in the Max Wedge and 409 cars. (those guys don't typically show up just to hang out and race though--they want a purse at the end...and that's the sticking point: how to come up with that money). You mentioned Mossouri in your original post...if you want it to fly, you need to go where the racers are. Racers will travel for the big races, but not for the little ones. Indy, York (PA) and Bowling Green (now Columbus) are all big Nostalgia races, located right in the midwest. Racers come from all over to attend those events, but the majority of them aren't traveling 1000 miles to get there. Those events are held where a big segment of the racers are within easy driving distance. -Brad
"why not just run against other like-minded individuals. Like the ones on the H.A.M.B." That is the idea. Just tell me where and how often that can happen? Once a year in Joplin? That's a good start. But for most of us, once a year is not enough. Porknbeaner has most of the points of interest hit on the head with respects to this idea. I'm wanting to get away from the corporate governing bodies dictating every little thing and every little place to spend money. I want/plan on build an injected sbc in a fed. I don't want something that looks like a bastardization of what some corporate neophyte thinks a nolstalgia digger looks like that requires all his friend's parts to compete so that it cost an arm, leg and a first-born to run, not to mention be competitive. There is a way to be safe, competitive and have fun without breaking the bank. I know there are racetracks out there that aren't '*HRA' sanctioned that would let us run. Look at Mokan. Outlaw tracks for outlaw cars. Notice I didn't state unsafe cars so drop that from the discussion. It's 'little-guy' approach that I want. It's doable. Now let's open it up for serious discussion. First question: What's a A.S.O.? r
Two words...good luck. This is not meant as an insult, but do you have any idea what it takes to start and operate an association like that? I have seen it firsthand from the inside and it's a nightmare. There are real reasons why the NHRA and others cost what they do and are controlling. It's not greed that drives those things.
No I don't have any idea what it takes. That is one reason for this post. I appreciate the opportunity to find out though. I'm looking for a group of like-minded individuals that would help in making this a reality or at least really find out if it's feasable on a real level, not just hypothetically speaking. r
One of the things that make it a nightmare is being true to all you owe favors to. That's not ment to be an insult either its just a bare fact of life when you depend on sponsors to pay the bills. Doesn't matter if you are in the magazine business, or raceing or promoteing races. But it doesn't have to be that way. if you take the business out of racing it is just a bunch of folks who want to have a good time and go fast while they are at it. The truth of the matter is that all worship aside the idols that started any of the *HRAs are no different than the rest of us just driven. Non of this starts with a rule book BTW it starts with gee what a good idea I got a car that I'm only racing once in awhile maybe we can make a go of this.
Raven - "KIRK!" is giving good advice. In any case, it's all about insurance coverage/liability. Frankly, the HAMB is VERY lucky to have the situation we do at MoKan. To reproduce that on a nation-wide scale would be virtually impossible in my mind. Before you do anything more - make some inquiries with insurance carriers regarding the costs to cover the liability of sanctioning races. I but I bet you'll be stunned at what you find out. Like KIRK!, I don't mean to sound harsh, but unfortunately, the realities of business today are not at all condusive to people just havin' fun with their old cars. I just spoke at some length with Ron Miller - the fellow who puts together the Standard 1320 Race/Reunion at Speedworld in Arizona - and just that single annual event takes a full year of pre-planning and aggravation from him (and Ron has decades of experience in that area). Believe me when I say I wish you the very best luck with this, just know the committment you're talking about - both in time and money - is very substantial, and will be fraught with headaches all the way.
Hey Raven! Sounds like a good idea. I'd be interested in playing around at your track(s) when you are finally able to set it all up. (Notice I said WHEN). I wish you the best of luck, and to refer it all back to your original question, it seems like many people are doing what one of my favorite lines of all time means, and as said by the great Jack Nicholson himself: "I'm drowining here, and all you're doing is describing the water!" If I had advice, I'd offer it up and tell you what/where/how to do it all. I wouldn't stand back here and point my finger and say "Good luck, your gonna need it!" and then stand back and watch. Raven, if you need my help, I'll do what I can to help.
I wish it was that easy, but unfortunately no matter how many like-minded people want to do it you are still at the mercy of the tracks, the law and lawyers. Unless someone wants to go across the country and buy up property to build their own dragstrips and be completely financially responsible. Dragstrips have to pay their bills and cover their asses from a legal standpoint. I hate that the world is padded for my protection and I wish that I could sign something that waves my right to sue due to injury during a dangerous activity that I chose to do. I understand the consequences as do most of us, but do our families? The ambulance chasers are good at convincing grieving families that they should get something because their loved one died, even if they died knowing full-well that they might do just that while doing what they were doing. Dead people rarely sue, it's the relatives that hire the lawyers. It saddens me, but the days of true freedom of choice are long gone...all thanks to greedy people and lawyers. Then we can get into the actual cost of putting on events...advertising, security, and so on. Those are realities too. Yeah, I know everyone wants everything to be small and just the "right" people, but 20 cars showing up with drivers and crews (at our level) do not pay the bills. Therefore you have to advertise to get people there to help pay the rent. You get the idea. Again, I truly wish it was simply a matter of calling up your friends and going to the track...but it's not.
I'm not trying to discourage you with all of this. My intention is to give you educated information. The more info you have the better prepared you will be to follow your dream.
Seems to me that the place to start is with Ryan. Instead of reinventing the wheel, expand the HAMB Drags to more tracks.
"Seems to me that the place to start is with Ryan. Instead of reinventing the wheel, expand the HAMB Drags to more tracks." I envision something like this, but something that would translate well to small, out of the way venues. Maybe something that existing tracks that are fed up with the coporate bs would be willing to integrate into or become a member/host of. Kirk, I understand your 'sacrastic' if not 'bitter' perspective. I am there, too. But just because the situtatuion exists doesn't mean it can't cahnge or a new venue open up. It's like saying only the government can go to the moon. Dick Rutan is fast proving that wrong. I know what I am proposing isn't easy or cheap. I'm not talking about taking the nation by storm on this issue, either. Start small. If the need truely does exist, then it will grow regardless. I'm a newbie at this and don't know jack. Just posing an idea to see if it would fly and what it would take to let it fly. r
We already have an alternative group running nostalgic race cars. Troy Coker's Nostalgia Pro Comp Association ran several events last year and have the first of this season this weekend at ORP at I (the track formerly known as Indianapolis Raceway Park (more corporate crap). Sure it is not a perfect deal but we have a lot of fun and the racers are all willing to help each other out with the object of having fun with hteir toys. As pointed out in several other posts we are stuck with some of the NHRA safety rules but there are plenty of cars that look like they came out of the late 60's/early 70's. We also have some of that ultra trick billet unobtanium shit on some cars but as long as it as front motored (or pre 72 for the gassers) we don't care. The NPCA also sets aside preferred parking space for street rodas at their events. At the moment the majority of races are run in conjunction with a track's regular bracket race program so admission is cheap and at most events you can get your nitro fix With the demise of GoodGuys as a sanctioning group the NPCA will be running the racing side of the GG Indy event, including the Hambsters. Here are a few shots of last summer's action at IRP. For more info go to www.nostalgiaprocomp.com Roo
No sarcasm or bitterness at all on my part. Just honest observation and truth. I hope you do pull it off. You will just be better off if you know the facts instead of finding things out the hard way. That way you can try to avoid the pitfall that others encountered. I always root for the little guy - that's where Billetproof came from.
Here are some of my favorite lines from former drag race promoters: "The crowd was so weak...BOTH spectators picked up their trash when they left..." "Hell - we woulda been better off handing each spectator that came a ten dollar bill. Would have been money ahead that way..." And of course the most famous... "How do you become a millionaire promoting drags? Start with 20 and wind up with one..." Good luck with that
"I always root for the little guy - that's where Billetproof came from." That is exactly what I'm talking about. Why not? www.nostalgiaprocomp.com I'm goin gto check this out. Thanks. r
I guess Us in Arkansas are blessed... We have a Heads-up only 1/8 mile track. The only downside is that it must have plates and insurance. But that is the only "tech inspection" They run it every Sat night. A couple of weeks ago there was a car show and races after the trophy & awards were handed out,there was a mad rush for all the " Hot Rods" and Muscle cars to get out of there before any one could ask them to line-em-up. I did get to line My 57 Chev up with a 65 cuda and a 66 mustang. I wish more of the owners of the cool old cars would line-em-up. It is sad to see all those cars with all that horsepower being wasted. I'll see ya'll at the HAMB Drags...Hopefully in My 31 A Sedan if not in My 41 Tudor.
I know from all the previous post about nostalgia drag races, heads up class, FED classes, etc........ that there are a number of guys that would like to see an affordable nostalgic FED heads up class. Whether it be through the NHRA or another sanctioning body - it doesn't matter. The problem is $ and #s! You can run a FED in Comp Eliminator in the NHRA - cost around $50,000 + to be competitive. Not many people can spend that kind of money. You could cheapen it up by starting another class with a claimer rule, but then you get into numbers - how many people will run this class. You have to have a pile of people to race this class to make the tracks (or sanctioning body) make it happen. Simple supply and demand. Believe me I've thought about it a lot - I wish the NHRA would start a heads up FED, claimer motor class - just like the IMCA boys did. If you've ever been to a dirt track race you know what I mean.
I love going to Two-Lane Blacktop. The owner Daniel has done a great job of putting together a safe fun place to hang it out. I think it would be a great place to do a HAMB drag... 11 of us from Central Ark met for breakfast and then rolled up there together. It was cool seeing the looks on the other people's faces as we drove the 40 miles. Here's a pic of My 57 and My friend driving My 41 on the track:
Brewton, re the A/ND class in NHRA's comp elim you are probably a little conservative on the numbers. I have several friends who run that class or Junior Fuel and I know one of them paid $73,000 for the motor in his car. Four time GoodGuys J/F champ Scott Parks builds his own cars but with a titanium rear end housing and driveshaft, plus all of the steering linkages out of the same stuff, magnesium body and lots of other trick stuff the roller is probably going to cost a customer in the same range is a good motor. When the sanctioning bodies restricted the class to iron heads and block that simply raised the cost of the motor. It takes a lot more work to come up with a good cast iron head compared with simply hogging one out of aluminum. The claimer motor is a good idea but administering it would probably be a nightmare. Roo
Raven, save yourself some heartburn. Read this. Not exactly what you are asking but...... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...light=anyone+interested+in+a+new+racing+class
Starting anything is a huge task. Ask the guys who have done it: Kirk! with Billet proof. Ryan with the HAMB and Mokan. First step: Become Walter Mitty. Think, daydream and fantasize about EXACTLY what you want to do with this. You need a very, very specific direction and target. Figure out where you're going to hold any events. You can either rent race tracks outright, or another way might be to glom onto someone else's track rental deal and add your own program to it. Pound the pavement: After you figure out what you want to do, start calling around and getting some prices. See how much it costs to rent a facility. That's going to be your true starting point. You'll have to plan, plan, plan. And then, before you put even the first step of the plan into motion, You MUST incorporate. This protects you. It protects you from the track, the spectators, the racers, the guy living next to the track who gets hits by a piece of shrapnel from a blown engine, the kid riding his bike out in front of the parking lot that gets hit by one of the racers pulling out of the parking lot. I got incorporated for my monthly swap meet for $600. And then find a good CPA. The hard fact is that while it's going to be a bunch of fun, you have to run it like a business to get it off the ground and make it successful. After you have the skeleton laid out (goals, part of the country, ideal goal for your new organization, car rules, cut off dates, etc. etc. etc.), then you start fleshing it out: What's it going to cost to do it, and how are you going to pay for it. And after you figure that out, you'll have to figure out how to promote it, to bring in the racers to have the event, and the spectators to watch it. If you take that last critical step, consider yourself a show promoter, and attack it that way. It took me two years with my swap meet before I considered myself a Show Promoter. Your whole outlook will change with that. If it was easy, it would happen over night, and everyone would do it. It doesn't happen overnight, and few people do it. That's what makes it so fun. -Brad
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