I bought a 5.7L Hemi out of a 2007 Dodge 4X4 and am starting to look at the installation. So many questions. What IFS or do I just keep the stock? And if I keep stock, can I change steering to R&P? How do you connect the wiring harness to the gauges, switches, etc. Anyone out there with help?
Uh-oh, look out. 5.7 Hemi is definitely not traditional and IFS is not too well liked around here either. Lots of guys have done the new hemi swap though. Just do a search. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=53074 There's even a carb swap kit that you can buy to get rid of the fuel injection. As far as the suspension goes, if you're going new motor then you just as well go new suspension. '49 DeSoto suspension is pretty outdated.
You'd better watch your step mister!!! As soon as you start describing engines in "liters", and mentioning pretty much anything manufactured past about 1964 in here, you're walking on thin ice!!! I have gotten flamed more than once in here for that kind of stuff! I do agree with the previous poster though, there is a lot of good "generic" information out there on how to put the newer engines into the older Mopars, just maybe none quite as old as yours. I think that the majority of the information could be adapted to your situation easily enough though. Google a bunch of different combinations of the words "engine swap" or "mopar engine swap" and your engine size and you might be surprised. The site that he listed is a good start! Good luck!!!
What you are going to have is 600 hours and $10,000 in an engine install in a 49 Desoto. You don't hook the wiring harness to the gauges unless the gauges are 2007 Dodge gauges.
I would tend to go with an aftermarket wiring harness and efi controller, or make it really simple and get the XV intake and put a carb on it, maybe wire up the efi later on once the rest of the car is sorted. I would also put a non electronic 518 trans on the back of that for the same reasons . . . the XV Intake Arrington makes a front cover to mount a distributor called the chipkiller
600 hours and $10,000 might be an understatement. If you're asking these questions after you already bought the engine, I'm not sure that you know exactly what you are getting in to.
We could tell ya' all about OLD Hemis in OLD cars, but you might get more criticism then help with your new 5.7L. Just preparing you. What wrong with OLD Hemis, anyway? A DeSoto Hemi would be GREAT for that DESOTO!
Well thanks everyone. I did actually do a lot of research prior to buying the motor. There are so many different ideas out there, I thought someone would have some good ideas. And you are right, why would I stick with Mopar when SBC would have been so much easier. 'Cause I don't care about the time, I am in this for the sport.
There's a number of threads on updating the OEM IFS that came on the car, look for Ply & Dodge 40-54 are same. The "scatpack" site some time back had a site listed where a new hemi was going into a 55 Mopar, might be worth looking up. P.S. Do an Intro?
Good on ya for staying Mopar, I commend you for it. So you want to run the factory harness or aftermarket computer or go carbureted?
I was wondering when someone who was gonna do a swap like that. But you gotta put the old hemi in the new ______ that the 5.7L from. But you know what sucks? The new hemi isnt really a hemi. Ya they are slightly domed but hemi means hemispherical, not domedish. Oh well
I am getting the factory harness with the engine and tranny and thought I would stay with the EFI. I realize that I can't use the stock gauges...was just asking what others had experienced. Just thought there would be help on this site, sorry to have bothered you. I am 58yo and not new to this game. Most of the puritans have forgotten that "back in the day" we were trying to put any motor combination that we could get our hands on in the vehicle we had. My father in law had the Desoto sitting out back and gave it to me to put "one of those new Hemis in it". Just think, twenty years from now some cranky old man or woman is going to say "Why don't you stick with the original 348CI instead of going with something new" Believe it or not, some new technology is better than what we were stuffing into our cars "back in the day".
Hey, good for you and you are absolutely right that rodders "back in the day" often adopted the latest tech available......i.e. the "51 Chrysler Hemis, '49 up Cad & Olds OHV V8's and so on. As for the suspension....those Mopars rode well for the time, but are not at all suitable for adapting a rack & pinion steering unit. You could upgrade to a power steering box fairly easily, but the width of the frame is pretty narrow and would likely require carefull selection of the box involved. some mount high and over the frame rail, with a long sector shaft, others, think front steer GM, mount inside the frame rail. My personal preference would be a Fatman Frame Stub with Mustang II style suspension and the power rack & pinion. An aftermarket wiring harness would be worth looking into as the factory Mopar systems are very complex and use a multiplex (more than one signal shares the same wire) system and that makes it very hard to seperate non essential functions from the ones you really need. I am still a fan of the old hemis, and have several, Dodge and Chrysler, but have owned , and do now own, 'new' hemi powered vehicles and they are great engines in my view.
You have confirmed what I thought, Fatman Fab is the way to go as it does use a GM front steer out of a Cavalier. One of the Alliance Vendors has a weld your own that I was interested in also but not much detail. This the first I have heard of the multiplex signal and that could create a huge problem...aftermarket harness is looking good right now. Thanks for your answer, I really appreciate your thoughts. I will keep posting as I go.
Regarding the Fatman Stub.....it is a new frame from roughly the firewall forward, that is spiced to the original rails....not just a MMII crossmember. that works well on some applications, but not so well on this series vehicle. The stub duplicates the front frame horns location and core support mounts, so everything original still bolts on, other than suspension.
Thanks Hnstray, they also have just the new a-arms...soooo many choices. That's why I asked the question. I was hoping to find someone else that had taken it on.
why not keep the factory front suspension. They are pretty good even for being 60 yrs old. A SBC will fit in there if you offset the motor an inch to the passenger side and run a passenger side manifold on the drivers side. I assume stuffing a new hemi in there would be about the same operation. Once the motor is in you can work on the suspension. move the upper shock mount to the frame and maybe move the lower spring plate to the bottom of the lower a arm to get you a little closer to mother earth.
I would suggest that you find and read a factory service manual and diagnostics manual before you even think about turning a wrench. The multiplex mentioned is just the start. The computers communicate a lot of info and will not work properly without it. Those gauges you mentioned not using? The PCM talks to the cluster, along with the smart junction box (fuse and relay box underhood). A 2007 will have OBDii along with anti-theft (ignition and cluster involved) and many other items. You really have to have a handle on what's going on before you jump in, so you have a plan of attack and know what must be done to make it work.
Those hemis may be ugly, but the sure do go like stink. They sound freaking great too. Until the Edsel is put together, I'm rockin the Hemi Ram. Moves a big ass heavy truck completely effortlessly. I even briefly considered this swap before the wiring scared me off. It's a complete mess. So here's what I learned about Hemi swaps in my brief and incomplete research: -Cars have front sump pans and low mount accessories. If you need either of those to fit the motor in the car look to a Challenger/300/whatever. -Adapters fit old transmissions on the new engine. Makes life easier since nobody seems to have controllers for the new 5spd auto -The computer is a nightmare. Let me repeat The computer is a nightmare. I wouldn't even attempt to use that thing. It talks to the cluster, the transmission, the wheel speed sensors, it even checks it's horoscope each time it starts up. Don't even try to use it or this swap will take 20 years. -Carb conversions are out there, and AEM is making (has made?) a plug and play computer. Otherwise you're looking at a real DIY solution like Megasquirt or the like. You're looking at a pile of cash either way. -There are independent ignition control modules that use the coil on plug setup without the factory computer. Same idea as the MSD boxes for carb'd LS-1s. Be aware that the factory system uses 16 plugs, and employs a strange wasted spark system to reduce emissions. That's what I remember off the top of my head. Good luck!
You certainly can use the stock gauges. Tell me how the gas gauge will know the difference? Each of the stock gauges can work with that motor. Don't forget that you MUST swap the rear for two reasons: to get rid of the slim shady Detroit U joints,a nd because your stock setup has the e brake on the transmission. Many more modern rear ends will bolt in, for example early Camaro rears. If you really want to build an unusual car with the opportunity for nice reengineering, swap in the front and rear suspension units from an XJ6, XJ12 or XJ-S Jaguar. Coupled with your new hemi, his will give you a drivetrain able to take anything you dish out that also handles, has an excellent ride, killer brakes and that can be maintained inexpensively. You can upgrade the stock front end but it will never be up to the potential of that motor. So, since you have to swap the rear anyway, perhaps consider the Jag approach. The open perimeter frames that MoPar used in those days are amenable to the Jag units.
X2 I would say that reading up on some other boards around the net would lend you more info than you will find here about the swap. This is not really rocket science and should not cost you an extrordinary amount of money but you will drop some dough. You will need to have the computer reflashed so it knows to not look for some info that wont be available. You wont be the first to this so the required info and programs are already out there. You can learn to do it or pay someone who has. The harness can be modified to and alone but it takes days of studying confusing diagrams just to know where to start. Then a plan of attack and method to combine the harnesses new and old. Again learn or pay. your guages...you need to integrate the sending units from your original guages into the new motor while leaving the computer's sending units in place. Now here is the pisser about doing this swap (and I do realize the type of questions you are asking) ....Lets say your all done with the work, thousands of dollars, millions of sparks, blood sweat and tears pound of flesh and it wont start or throws a code , leaves you stranded ect. something is wrong. The local dodge Dealer is not going to touch it, Bubbas garage wont know where to start looking and the local speed shop wont have any idea, and the high end custom shop that knows all about that swap but wont touch it because they didnt do the work , You are going to need to know how to work on that computer contolled car yourself or be buddies with a dealer mechanic who will come and rescue you.
This may or may not be an option. More common cars have had thier ecus "cracked" so that tuners can upload new programs. 10 years ago most of the really important information, like fuel and spark tables was held on a chip which was soldered to the main board. That made life easy since the chip could be replaced with a new one and the ecu never knew the difference. Others had slots for add on chips which were used by dealers to alter programing after the car was sold. That was back when cars used Atari grade electronics. New computers are significantly harder to crack. Better technology let more of the vital data get locked away in code where you literally have to "hack" the computer to insert new code, hopefully not messing up other things in the process. It's a painstaking process, and I'm not sure anybody has pulled it off with the new DCX units. To give you an analogy, think of it like trying to modify a carb that's welded shut. Again, maybe, maybe not. Back in the Atari days the cluster was just a cluster. Now it's part of HAL's mainframe. On the otherside of the world from HAMBtown, where people play with rice rockets, it's common to have to take the gauge cluster from the donor in order to use the stock ecu on stuff made in the last 5 or so years. I *think* the new hemi is the same way. Most things that send multiple signals via 1 wire are. This is 100% true. You better learn good while you do the swap. Nobody will want to touch that thing. The best way out is a carb or an aftermarket ecu. At least then you have some customer support from whoever made the thing. Also, there are old Hemi swaps running around. By sticking with "proven" aftermarket solutions you may get some help.
Yup, what everybody else has said, PITA. Check this: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0803_1970_dodge_challenger/index.html .
Thanks everyone. I never thought that this was going to be easy. If it was, I would just do another Chevy shoebox. I have owned all three at one time or another. The present gauges are all six volt, so it's either step down the voltage or put in something newer. I will continue to check around and see what others have done. I'll stay in touch. If it gets to be too much, I'll trade it for a Nissan. Just kidding.
Just to expand on the gauges situation, I don't have the wiring in front of me but I do know that; Fuel gauge is input to the PCM and then communicated to the cluster module via the bus (computers talking to each other). Same with the speedo, tach, coolant temp and the voltmeter. ALL the lights are cluster module controlled. When you get the OE info, you will find that there is a gauge test you can access that makes all the gauges go from zero to a third, then half, then full. (or something like this). This can 't be done if they are hard wired. The computers all need to talk to each other and watch for this info on the bus. If any computer is not connected and working, it will set communication codes. There is NO way I'm aware of that you can wire the PCM outputs to any analog gauges and make them work. You also can't connect the gauges to the same sensors as the PCM, since the voltage signals will be pulled down by the analog gauges, making the PCM see the wrong inputs. There is a steep learning curve for this stuff. You will need to draw your own wiring diagram. You will have to run 1. the OE PCM, gauges, full sensors and probably the fuel tank, or 2. Aftermarket PCM, with a steep programming learn, or 3. carb and aftermarket spark system I'm not trying to talk you out of it, just make you aware of the task. Check out haltech, FAST and other forums for an idea of what is needed. Diablo has cracked the OE PCM, talk to them about your project. http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=19 http://forums.haltech.com/ http://www.diablosport.com/
It will be complicated for sure As soon as you toss the stock computer you'll be taking a step in the right direction. I think we've covered all the reasons it's a bad idea. As for practical options, take a long look at megasquirt. It has a native ability to run a Ford EDIS coil pack, although that only gets you 8 wires. The Hemi has 16 plugs. I don't recall who makes them, but someone had a solution to fire both plugs simultaneously. The MS has an onboard MAP sensor, and has only 10 wires to make it run (more for additional features). Plus the total outlay including sensors and harness is less than a grand.
Mopar Performance sells this kit: A.Fuel Conversion Kit, 5.7L Hemi Use this complete kit to convert a 2003-2005** 5.7L Hemi into a crate motor ready for an older classic car or truck. Includes all gaskets and hardware necessary for installation. 1 P5153339AB Fuel Injection Conversion Package, EFI, 2003-05 5.7L Hemi, 5.7L Truck Front Cover **Note: 2003 engines require 2004-2008 fuel rails and injectors for these kits. A.EMS, Programmable "Plug and Play" Engine Management Systems (EMS) These engine management systems will forever change the way you look at and perform fuel injection tuning! User-friendly Windows based software (XP, 2000, NT, 98, 95 and ME) makes the task of copying, viewing and manipulating data as simple as a click of the mouse. User-defined templates are easily configurable and enable tuners to establish "quick keys" to any pertinent information during the tuning process. The infinitely adjustable Mopar EMS software allows tuners to program virtually any combination of engine control, power adders and auxiliary devices, and accurately deliver proper amounts of fuel and correct ignition timing for virtually any engine configuration or operating condition. Mopar's programmable engine management system is capable of adapting to almost any vehicle using "flying lead" wiring harness (available separately). We are confident that this is the most versatile, powerful, and comprehensive universal engine management program available for your Mopar! Unique features found in Mopar's universal EMS also include independent, built-in "peak and hold" injector drivers, capable of controlling both high and low impedance injectors of any brand or flow rate. Direct ignition coil drivers control the coil-on-plug system with no additional hardware required. Unique, dual-UEGO (wideband O² sensor) input provides accurate A/F tuning and calibration capabilities no matter how heavily modified the engine. In addition, dual-channel (typically, one per cylinder bank) detonation (spark knock) snesor capability provides safe engine operation under a wide range of loads, altitudes, and fuel octane availability. 1 P5153608 EMS, Programmable, Carbureted Applications 1 P5153528 EMS, Programmable, EFI Applications Note: For crate engine or conversion of 5.7L or 6.1L into an older classic car or truck. Not designed for newer vehicles already equipped with a 5.7L 0R 6.1L Hemi. A.
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