New oil eating old engines

I wish that made it cheaper here, but it doesn't But that's cool that it's made here, lots of technology in this area...

 

Reasonable questions; Won't be addressed because people that jump to conclusions that cam failure is caused by the oil just don't know.

Which leads to my question(s)

#1. How come the motors I have overhauled and used regular old 10-30 oil haven't had cam failure?

#2. What is the cause of cam failure in motors that are already running high Buzzzzz-ipity-DDpp???

#3. How come oil with (the magic shit) in it, now costs a lot more than that with (it) did before, when it didn't cost more before the "so-called" EPA ban on it???

 

They can't answer the majority of them because they are parts replacers and not mechanics. (there that'll stir 'em, damn I like this new stick).

Can't answer your question friend. Last flattened cam I replaced was in 1983. Wasn't one of my builds it was a Chebby 6 with 150K plus. I don't suppose that it was premature cam failure.

I really don't care how much or how often folks discuss this topic makes them feel important. What irks me is these ass hats that always post on one of these threads about how they have changed tons of trashed cams since we discovered that oil wasn't as good as it used to be and its because there isn't any zinc in the oil.

Well I think its time they stepped up and put thier money where their mouth is.

Hell we don't even know how many miles the cam that started this post has on it and the circumstances underwhich it was installed.

Ya know I had a mallory YL tach drive unit loose a bushing a couple of years ago. Its cam driven, I'll bet it was this damned new oil and not the fact that it has beens used and abused for at least 40 years. As a matter of fact I'll know for sure that it is the oil once I go to a site selling oil additive and read their little article.

Well I've waisted enough of Ryan's band width for one day.

Later gator

 

The following information was copied from a Swedish Chemicals Agency url:


Zincdialkyldithiophosphate, Zincdiaryldithiophosphate (ZnDDP)



The Products Register lists about 30 different substances/groups of substances of this type.

ZnDDP (Zinc dialkyl- and diaryldithiophosphates) are used in many lubricating oils as anti-wear agents. These compounds are multifunctional because they are also anti-corrosive and anti-oxidative. They have been used since the 1930s and today are the dominant anti-wear agent, occurring in virtually every motor oil on the market.

ZnDDP is used in motor oils, hydraulic pumps, gear boxes, transmissions and metal machining. Usually ZnDDP constitutes about 1% of these oils, and it acts by creating a protective layer on metallic surfaces at elevated pressures and temperatures. Anti-wear agents functioning in this way are usually called EP additives, EP being short for “extreme pressure”. The characteristic of substances of this type is that at a certain given pressure and temperature they disintegrate and, with their functional groups (sulphur and/or phosphorus) react with the iron in the metal. These inorganic ironsulphides and/or ironphosphides which are formed provide extremely strong layers on the metallic surfaces, added to which, they give a lower coefficient of friction.

http://apps.kemi.se/flodessok/floden/kemamne_Eng/zinkdialkyl_eng.htm

 

There's been reports of US companies selling junk Chinese lifters.

 

Porknbeaner; It's difficult to seperate those that are merely parrotting from those that really believe, eh?

I would like to hear from the vendors of the silver bullet that they say will save my camshafts (from the wicked geanie that hasn't struck yet)

Question;
How come oil with (the magic shit) in it, now costs a lot more than (it) did before, (when it didn't cost more) before the "so-called" EPA ban on (it)???

George; In my mind it's a lot more likely that it was not cheapass cam or lifters in those pictures that caused the failure(s). Possibly, running with way-loose valve train, and/or over-revving caused that damage. The damage to the lifter faces in the middle picture is not indicative of sloughing-off of metal that might be attributed to inadequate lubrication. They are HAMMERED. That's obvious to me.

 

Yep..I found a nice set of NOS Johnson lifters for my 455 that I'm putting together. Crower also sells lifters that have a hole drilled in the face to help extend cam & lifter life, but I'm not sure if they are US made. I know Johnson's are.

 

Something else to think about in the '90s one major cam company, one that I have used for a very long time and has pretty near always put out a very respectable product, was peddling two grades of lifters. I purchased a set of their lifters to run on a new cam [one that now has somewhere in the neighborhood of 130K on it, no additive]. Well I made it down the road about a week and all at once it sounded like I was running solids. Go to run the valves and no give I was running solids, about a 3rd of them had stuck.

I pull the intake and the lifters and give them a call. Read the clown on the other end the part number off the box and he says, "Well Benno those are our import lifters, why did you buy those?"

I was in a pinch so I bought some lifters at the local speed shop from a different company that I also trusted. No more problems.

I sent the other lifters with an ugly gram back to the manufacturer along with an ugly gram, and the receipt and they sent me a check to cover the cost + sales tax.

There are a lot of sub-grade parts being sold to a lot of shade tree mechanics these days. Maybe you can get buy with those parts if you use the proper majic. Or maybe its just another way to point a finger and not take responsability for putting out a bad product.

Just something to think about I really don't care what you do.

 

I agree with you TMAN, I did get a little lucky and as I stated it was something we were just going to try to see if it worked. I am on active duty (19 years now) so I did not have the time to fly "home" on leave and help my disabled father re-build an engine. Also the funds were not there right now to do so. So this was a viable option to get him back on the road and I thought I would share that. As an aircraft crew chief we a forced sometimes to flush jet engine oil on engines that “burn” a bad oil sample. In the middle of the desert it is sometimes not an option to drop an engine. So the “Russian roulette” idea actually had some practical backing to it and was not just a shot in the dark. To this day we have never had and engine failure after an oil system flush. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
As for your brethren ZMAN he appears to be an alliance member not a “new guy” and the one who started ragging on everyone on this post about “repeat” this, “search” that. As I stated before, if he can find a post that has this idea in it let me know, I looked and did not find one so I posted it. It seems a lot of people have constructive things to say so let them say it; people enjoy all the "constructive" feedback. <o></o>
The cam we installed was an Edelbrock unit (made in USA) and as soon as you open the box the paperwork on top stated that cam failure is certain without adding the oil supplement. So I would think that they have done the research as to why the parts are failing and if they say it is most likely the oil I would have to believe them. They have the money and the resources to do this type of testing. <o></o>
Question; Do you really think that if you signed up to a web page sooner that makes you better or smarter? We don’t think any less of new Airman just because they just enlisted.

 

Hummmm....the sound of silence is deafening. NO gratuitous replies from whiners, bitchers and complainers. No negativism or sophomoric quips...gee I wonder why?

Good for you mrmrsoldford. On behalf of non-troglodyte HAMBers everywhere I salute you.

Oh yeah and thanks again for your initial contribution regarding flushing your engine. Your story put a smile on my face. When I was finishing high school in the mid 60s I had a 50 Ford Business Coupe with a 265 Chevy. The first series of SBCs didn't come equipped with oil filters. I worked at Eddie's Texaco on the corner of Foothill and Santa Anita in Arcadia Ca. Every 1000 miles I would put my shoebox Ford up on the lube rack, drain the Havoline oil, drop the car down add two quarts of cleaning solvent and two quarts of non-detergent bulk oil and let the engine idle for about 10 mins, then I put the car back up, drained the flushing solution, dropped the car and added a gallon of SAE 40w Havoline (remember the big cans?). Not as good as an oil filter but far better than nothing; my "old" drain oil was so clean my buddies used to ask for it to add to their engines when the oil level in their cars was low.

Cheers,

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

See, you left out the part about being TRAINED to flush systems and had experience doing so, that kinda supports your 1st post. You have an edge there that the average person reading your thread show know about. That and it was cool to help your dad.

As for newbies, in the service. I served and most all newbies get a fair amount of razzing. The Drill Sargeants call it tough love

 

Porknbeaner, you are one seriously angry bastard. I leave the HAMB for a few days and now I'm a liar who can't prove a thing. I see how it is.

I've changed two cams, both in high performance small blocks, one Ford, one Chev, both with solid cams of just over a half inch lift, one 112 degree lsa and one 114, though I don't remember which was which. The Ford had a Comp and I don't remember what the Chev had. Both engines were built before the zinc thing hit, both had a few thousand street miles, both had oil changes using the new oil, and both had wiped cams - most, but not all lobes showing wear, some just barely, some rounded completely off (on the Chev, the guy kept driving it not knowing why it was running worse and worse, but he did try replacing the carb and distributor). Most lifters showed dished wear, some very pronounced.

I replaced the cams and lifters with new parts of similar specs, the Ford guy was spooked with solid flat tappet cams so he got a new Cam-Motion solid roller with link bar roller lifters, and the Chev got a hot .566 Lunati. Both were broken in with Brad Penn break-in 30, and the Chev runs Brad Penn oil now with no further issues. The Ford uses Valvoline racing because zinc is no longer an issue with the roller cam.

My humble apologies for not sending samples of the oil to the petroleum lab and samples of the cams and lifters to the metallurgical lab, I suppose you'll just have to work your way past the disappointment and bravely soldier on.

-KK

 

Kustom Komet; You are jumping to a big conclusion to assert that those failures were caused by the oil. You don't know that. Your "Opinion', is not 'proof'. What you have described is not unusual regarding performance cams, since Christ was a Corporal. It's always been the nature of the beast. Your implication that now we can all rest easy, "with no further issues" by using Brad Penn is taking that 'giant leap'.

 

This whole subject has intrigued me since I first saw it here on the Hamb several months ago. I've been out of the hot rod scene for about 20 years and just recently got back into it and have found that MANY things have changed so when this zinc thing came up, I thought WTF, better get with the program. So I asked a few friends that have been running old rides all their lives and they their reaction was basically HUH?. I went to town and started looking for zddp and couldn't find anything, looked at many varieties of oil but couldn't find what I was looking for. So I went to a few local performance shops and asked and was shown their break in oil. I stated that I wasn't breaking in an engine but was running a couple with flat tappet cams and that's what I needed to zinc content for. They basically looked at me like I was asking for unicorn piss and had no idea what the hell I was talking about. According to them, they, and every other hot rod and muscle car runs just regular motor oil and that I was being led down the garden path. As of yet, I'm still running Rottela simply because I buy it by the skid and that's what I use in my 3406's and C15. I don't believe that the people claiming that the zinc additive is absolutely necessary are blowing smoke and I don't believe that the people that think that the zinc additive is unnecessary are blowing smoke either. I suspect the difference of opinion may come from a difference in application. When running hot cams that require lots of spring pressure, the zinc is likely a must but stock/mild cams with stock spring pressure, not so much. This may explain why so many people don't use zddp additive and don't have cam problems and other have heard of cams failing in short order without. Getting back to the actual subject of the thread, I've only wiped a cam once and that was in a 454 in 1993. I changed the cam and lifters, changed the oil and filter and carried on, business as usual. No problems.

 

Here is alittle more info on the subject:

I have in my possession an actual testamonial from Dove Manufacturing who I believe is the largest US company that makes roller rockers and makes them for several other companies under private labels.

They have been using zddplus for over a year. They even used it in their engine they built for the engine challenge contest as they had a failure the year before. Since they began using it no failures...

They have also observed reduced wear patterns on the shaft mounted rocker systems ie Ford FE big and small blocks and Chrysler and on the main and rod bearings. They highly recommend the product especially for any race or performance engine.

I also have a testamonial from a engine shop that builds race motors 1300 HP drag race engines....even using it in solid roller set ups that turn 9,500 rpms and over 1,100 spring pressure and they have seen a significant reduction in cam lobe and roller wheel scuffing.

They use zddplus....

Keep in mind cam companies like Crower-Isky-Erson would not be buying a product like this unless they are aware of issues with the current sm category of oil......These companies have been in business well over 40-50 years.

Crower now uses a new paste with their cams.....

While its true depending on spring pressures etc how and if and when wear issues develop doesn't it make sense to start with the best possible solution rather than gamble that the levels of zddp in your oil is adequate........

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

Earlier I posted a chemical industry publication stating that all motor oils contain ZnDDP. http://apps.kemi.se/flodessok/floden...ialkyl_eng.htm

Attached is a PDF showing that ALL Mobil 1 oil formulations have at least 900ppm of ZnDDP and some as much as 1850ppm. If the additive is present in all formulations it follows that the substance is considered advantageous for all engine oil applications. Thus metallurgists and petroleum engineers universally stipulate that their products contain ZnDDP.

The above facts beg the next question: Who has the most credibility regarding the ZnDDP issue, self-appointed pseudo-experts or industry professionals?

 

900 ppm is a far cry from when they originally had 1,800 ppm before EPA started to make oil companies reduce the levels...

Also keep in mind it is a known fact that zddp depletes at a faster rate for the first 1,000 miles of driving.....

I am not an expert however I have deep connections to a company that has done extensive research on the topic.

This same company owns one of just 13 independant dna labs in the usa so they are very much in tune with the importance of testing and quality control issues.....

denniskirban@yahoo.com

The levels used to be 1,800 if you have any type of performance engine and use any of the sm oils....its best to start with 1,800 ppm of zddp which has been a known lubicant for 40-50 years.....

 

Not seriously angry just not easily duped.

The truth of the matter is that you will not wipe your '65 Mustang by changing the oil. And you are not the first to say that you have changed a cam because of lack of zinc in the oil. Although you are the first to step up and say that you have indeed actually changed a flattened cam.

As for proof that either cam was wiped because of the type of oil additive or the lack there of you have none.

I am assuming that these are not engines that you originally built and that you are not using oil as an excuse for poor mechanics.

Now I have built a half a dozen engines since 2003. Some pretty nearly stock and some pretty serious. All with flat tappet cams some hydraulic and some solid, one roller but we'll leave that one out as according to the rules stated you don't need additive with a roller cam and it is not included in the count. I keep pretty close tabs on the people I build for I won't build for just any Joe or Mike off the street.

Non of them have had a cam failure and non are using any sort of oil additive at all. One of the engines is a '57 Corvette motor in a car a little older than that is running a Crane cam and has made the trip from here to cruisin the coast every year since it was built along with normal summer driving.

All are long mile cars.None have flattened a cam. Of course I know who installed the cam and who broke it in. I know that there were no nicked lobes, that the cam lobes were properly burnished during break in. That immediately after breakin the oil was changed to over the counter Castrol.
I also know that the cam bores are straight, the cam bearings are installed properly and the clearance is within tolerance.

I am not making any claims about majic dust here just normal mechanic's practice. Uh that's 6 to your 2.

Angry, no, I just don't like snake oil vendors.

I will give you this you at least have changed a cam or two and you are not touting tons as I have seen on other posts. But when you make a statement like they were wiped because of the lack of a certain oil additive you should have some way to back it up. Not just that you have seen a bad cam in your lifetime.

BTW when I asked if you had even measured the lob lift I wasn't asking if you read a cam card. Normal practice if you are either rebuilding or trying to diagnose a problem is to measure the lob lift among other things but this isn't auto shop 101. It tells you if a cam needs to be replaced and or how worn it is. A lot can be learned from knowing your numbers. Even a clue as to what may have caused the failure.

I could go on for hours here. But I think you get the point.

 

Personally, I don't doubt for a second that the zinc additive is advantageous. The can manufacturers wouldn't recommend it if it weren't. However, the cam manufacturers could be recommending it as a precaution to reduce the possibility of a failure claim. With that said, it seems to me, and I think this was eluded to earlier in this thread, if a wiped cam was due to poor lubricating properties of the oil being used, then it seems to me that ALL of the cam lobs would wear down at a reasonably similar rate. Since every lobe is subject to the same oiling and oil, why would one lobe fail and not the others if the oil is the cause?.

 

The next question is if the oil has it then why do you need to put it in there.

I never said that I didn't think oil needed a zinc compound just that additive is not necessary.

I used to know a lot of fellas that thought that marvel Mystery oil in the gasoline would make you engine last longer as well as bardhall top oil and any number of other gasoline and or oil additives. Never used them my engines went just as far as anyone elses.

If you are willing to do the research you'll find that most of the studies if not all the studies that are put out for the fellas to get all fired up over are not independent studies but put out by the folks that make and sell the additives. Its called advertising.

Like I said before I have nothing against selling for a living. I don't even have anything against the fellas that sell everyone needs to make a living. I just don't take the salesman's word for what it is that I need. I find out for myself.

I just by oil off the shelf like the rest of you fellas, I don't seem to have a problem with cams being flattened. Maybe I'm just lucky. But we are talking about something mechanical here an action and a reaction. If you stand in front of a train and don't move you're gonna get flattened, you will get the same result every time. If you need to ad zinc oil additive to your oil in order to keep your engine from being toasted then my engine won't fare any better than yours.

Perhaps my logic is faulty.

 

Unless Pork'n'Beaner is formulating his own oil, and can prove there is no ZnDDP present, then he is using ZnDDP in his engines...even if he does NOT use additives.

&#8232;&#8232;Further, unless Pork'n'Beaner conducts a statistically valid test in which there are engines being run under identical conditions with and without ZnDDP; he cannot make any meaningful statement about the usefulness of ZnDDP.

&#8232;&#8232;It would be interesting to know whether Pork'n'Beaner "inadvertently" uses a brand of oil in his engines that contains a relatively high level of ZnDDP (>1000ppm). In which case his entire argument is meaningless.

 

Actually no it's not, if you actually read what he wrote you would have seen.

Reading is fundamental. Comprehension is key.

 

I'm with you brother! I had a cam go flat using 15/40 Rotela, although it has been said to have enough ZDDP. I have ran in atleast eight engines (Y-Blocks) on Brad Penn and after tear down and inspection the cams look great. Not gonna argue with sucsess.

 

Well if you folks from Johnson County read like you drive I wouldn't expect you to understand anything I wrote anyway.

But I have mentioned that I have used Castrol pretty much exclusively for over 40 years.

I haven't mentioned that I have run any tests other than the fact that I have never ever had a cam that I installed fail, period. But there is a difference between a mechanic and a parts replacer. You can teach a monkey to screw one together.

Statistically valid tests? So far all I have read here with the exception of some info from 1948 is conjecture. Perhaps I am wrong but what I am reading is that you must put a zinc compound oil additive in your oil or buy a specific brand of oil or you will roast your engine.

All I am really saying for those of you that really don't read and understand English is that I buy my oil off the shelf, I don't add anything special into it and I am not having any problems.

There have been vendors of additive and magic elixirs for your car as long as the internal combustion engine has been around. If that floats your boat then jump all over it. Just don't preach your fear around me and expect me to listen faithfully and applaud.

 

Having your oil tested is relatively cheap. I know some bike guys (CrazyD being one) that have had it done locally. I plan on taking a sample from the 54 to the testing facility when I put the tank back in it.

Look in your area for testing, until then, Porknbeaner is right, you are are speculating on why your engine/cam crapped out.

 

I did it when I was still racing, that's how I ended up using LE in my stuff. Through the late 80's and all through the 90's it always came back the best.

 

Does this only affect solid lifters?

 

No, Flat tappets--meaning solid lifters and hyd. lifters. Any roller-solid or hyd. will b fine. Most/all cars today have roller lifters, but the high pressure lubricants will ruin the cat. converters. CONSPERICY ANYONE??

 

Well.... diesels have alot higher compression ratio than even a high performance race gas engine,they are usually turbocharged on top of the high compression.The large journal bearings spin faster than a small journal (gas engine)bearing.Just some points to consider,oh I forgot that diesel engines are usually pulling a huge load especially when they are installed in an 18 wheeler sorry if I covered some already covered points ....I didn't read every single post I guess thats why diesel oils hold thier viscosity for longer and dont turn to dishwater when super heated under duress.
I'll keep using delo 400 in my gas engines as well as my diesel motors (cummins motors)b-coz it works....no other reason!!

 

im not trying to get in a pissing match but i think you have been very lucky with your cams.i know alot of different cam co. were getting there lifters from out side of the US.and this could have been some of the prob.all i have to say is i dont think any cam co.would put a warning about there cams failing in every new box if there wasnt a problem!!!to me that is not good advertising!!!they arnt trying to sell you oil,they already sold you a cam and lifters.they made there money.they just dont want something to happen to it and the person complaining and sending the stuff back.i know if i spent $300plus to buy a new cam and it lasts less than 100 miles i would be pissed!!!let alone the gaskets,oil,anti-freeze,time ,and wories about all the new cam metal floating around my expencive engine.to me i would rather spend an extra$10.00 to try and keep my $5,000pluse engine running in tip-top shape!!i change the oil in my dailydrivers every 3-5000 miles,and change the oil in my race-car every 3-8 miles.yes this might be overkill but im willing to spend $100 ayear just for the piece of mind!