Technical New purchased hydraulic lifters bad ?

Flat tappets are still a solid choice.
Just due your due diligence when assembling and stop watching the idiots on YouTube demonstrating how "you can set your zero-lash in half the time using this simple method. And you don't have to turn the crank"!

 

Had some bad luck a couple years ago with flat tappets and started buying older nos stuff but fyi the lifters are quite often gummed up and need to be disassembled and cleaned or they may not pump up.

 

What takes the fun out of this is thinking it can happen when what you want is the simplicity of following instructions, doing well, doing cheaply.

I watched some guy doing a video where he took all 16 lifters apart, said he didn't like any of them, one reason or another, and was sending them back for a refund. Anyone get those in the mail?

I read a study where oil friction points had an effect with spring pressures on the rotation of the lifter and pushrod. Oh yea, to silky smooth it doesn't spin the lifter. But it does push on it.

What I'm having a hard time grasping, is with all the worn lifter tip and lobes I've seen, google has brought up, video's I've watched, stuff I've read, why doesn't it slide up and slide down all day every day if it has a lubricated surface to ride on? That got me thinking that it then must be either a lubrication issue or an alignment issue. Some of those cam lobes worn off to a side, maybe?

And just how much is it supposed to spin anyways a revolution of the cam shaft. 3,10,30, 180, 360 degrees? What's the number anyone know.
They say dot the push rod, or stripe it, watch it turn and that means the lifter is turning. Well, what would that do with a "I'll adjust them when I get it running approach" to building an engine.

I will say this, while I previously suggested I wasn't worried as much it being a manufacturer fail as much installer issue, that was because thinking the checks and balances in the system will rule out such wrongs does allow for a more worry-free sleep at night.

Truth be told, I still wouldn't rule it out and for that reason wish to clarify my stance on the issue.

I think things have improved in manufacturing and that includes offshore manufacturing. While you might get what you pay for if you pay better, cheap goods make the world go around. And allow hobbies to exist. Take that away and what have you got left. Drinking drugs and sex if you're lucky. Men all over the world do all three to some degree. It happens. And they hold down jobs.
Some guy in a heat treatment facility wants to knock off early to knock back a few...? I'll just turn the oven up to 1275 for another hour and things will bake just CAM dandy.

Well, I went looking for that Super bowl ad. The guy on the assembly line screwing things or not together during the bowl. I couldn't find it. But I found this one.

Snickers Super Bowl Commercial Manly - YouTube

Sometimes things happen. Sometimes for a reason. Sometime not.
Man up, make it right. Complain firmly. Seek restitution, 3 times if necessary or a 4th. Pay visa, keep the receipt. Above all else, remember if it makes a tick, revving it up won't usually help. Move forward moving on, third times the charm.

 

And Edelbrock is owned by a private equity group called Industrial Opportunity Partners and has been since 2010, In 2020 the company moved from California to Mississippi. and between that and the pandemic getting parts from Edelbrock was pretty tough, might still be. Larry

 

Personally I don't think all flat tappet cam/lifter failures are owners not knowing how to set them up. There have been numerous cases where guys who've grown up around flat tappet cams and set up hundreds of them, but still have a failure lately. I doubt they forgot how to set up a flat tappet cam.

 

Edelbrock's owner's maybe cut from same cloth as Holley, Sentinel Capital Partners, not good, goggle them. As far as the push rod rotation test with paint mark, I have done a few tests, some rotate about a turn 5 seconds, some a bit more, maybe 20. That's at about 800 rpm, after that, if all is good, the oil is poring over head and shooting out pushrods all over. Just did a mild perf 350, 9:1 comp. w/ comp 268h cam and mystery white box lifter's one of my machinist uses, 110/250 spring, moroso moly on cam and lifters, and just Quaker State 5-30 synthetic, no ZDDP additives , just started it up, and let it run @ 1,000 for 45 min. I like this oil for it's characteristics in new car , high load components like high pressure fuel pump for Direct Fuel Injection. After 3 hours, ok, more results to come.

 

1000 rpm steady for 45 minutes ?

 

When I rebuilt my first engine, was informed to verify the lifters can rotate smoothly as well as move up and down in their respective bores. Any stiction may cause problems during break-in.
I was super paranoid and ended up disassembling the lifters and cleaning them out. Some no name white box brand from Summit Racing. Primed them up with a little oil. That was the late 90's same engine/cam is still in the car, yes it runs.

 

I read an old isky add about parkerichized cam lobe surface. Any engineer out there that can answer this.

 

They didn't " forget how" , the procedure & materials have changed , the oils have changed , spring pressures have changed , but people get stuck in their ways ,"they" haven't changed ,& that's the problem .

 

Going back 50 years, just about anyone I knew was off to the local speed shop to get a hot Wolverine FT cam for stock engines. Most were rudimentary mechanics at best, yet they soldiered through the installation and cam related failures were unheard of.

Sure the oil was better and they poured a can of STP over the installed cam and ran it. I'm not sure outside of my group who did break them in. The speed shop we used handed out tubes of cam grease with every cam they sold, so I guess one did fail now and then.

 

How fast a pushrod or lifter spins is directly related to how much lash it has. The tighter the adjustment is, the slower it turns. RPM's increase the spin rate, but equal rpm's with more or less preload will result in different spin rates.
I've adjusted lash on hydraulic flat tappet cams while running, and you see two things; oil flow increase as you back off the adjustment, and spin rate increases.

 

I agree materials have changed, or we wouldn't be having lifter failures. And oils have changed, but we can still get the correct oils, so I don't agree there, unless somebody uses the wrong oil these days. But how have procedures changed? Nothing about setting lash on lifters is different than it's been in many decades. There are cam company recommendations that are in some cases crazy, and if you follow them you could damage an engine, or at the least have poor performance. Some years back I bought a Comp Cams hydraulic flat tappet kit, and instructions stated 1.5 turns of preload. Setting it at that much preload will cut off almost all oil to the rockers, and no spin to the lifters. I tried it, and immediately backed them off to 1/4 turn and all was great.

 

Through the mid '70's seldom used cam lube ,if anything STP or " white lube" , no special oil , set half the valves on 1 , half on 6 , no running for 20 minutes varying the rpm , no extra oil dump , put new lifters on old cams & vice- versa , sometimes boss told us to use a used lifter " out of the can" . were told to " pump up" the lifters with an oil can prior to installation , don't recall any problems ?​

 

@2OLD2FAST I learned the same way. We'd use a push rod and a bowl or cup of 10W30 motor oil and work the lifter's plunger up and down so the lifter will absorb the oil. Push and release until the lifter was hard or no air bubbles cam out. Then we'd let them "soak" in the oil 24 hours afterwards before being coated with moly lube and installed. Never recall a cam or lifter going bad.

 

I'm no engineer, but I have a google at my finger-tips.

parkerizing
noun
TRADEMARK IN US

1. a process for rustproofing iron or steel by brief immersion in a hot acidic solution of a metal phosphate.

 

With my new Lunati cam, the instructions said not to soak them in oil overnight. Back in the day, I did the soak and pump thing. In later years I took greater care with cam installations. The usual stuff, pre-oil the engine, go real conservative on the initial lash. I think some guys are going with a 1/2 or even a 3/4 turn initially, possibly a full turn. Less lash helps the parts all settle in better. Just my opinion.

 

Correct. If you fill (soak) a hyd lifter (or prime it), it will act as a solid lifter until first fire oil pressure reaches the lifter and allows it to bleed down.

 

Microsoft Word - INST150 (summitracing.com)
Well, the Lunati instructions I found on-line don't mention it, the DON'T soak and pump the lifter thing.
Maybe it's been changed? They do mention pre oiling of the engine, that, would serve as a similar purpose.

Reading 4 pages of instruction seems a bit much when the average attention span is based around the phrase, how hard can-it be.

- in the event your engine develops a problem (overheating, fuel leak, etc.) shut the engine off immediately, let it cool down, repair the problem and resume your break in procedure.

You hear that?
Yea...sounds like a tic?
Maybe rev it a bit and see if it goes away?
Yea, good idea?
Didn't go away, but it sounds like a tic.
Rev it again, I'll grab the screw driver to hear where it's coming from.
I dunno man, sounds like a lifter?
It should have pumped up by now.
ah yea man, kinda weird it hasn't. Sure sounds good. Rev it again.
You think it's getting worse?
Hard to say...rev it again.
Yea maybe? Rev it again but hold it steady.
Well, it's not going away.
You think it's a lifter?
Probably. Maybe adjust the rocker arm.
Yup that's a tic.
Well tighten it and see if it fixes it.
Ah man this sucks, it's getting worse not better.
Bet it's the cam.

 

My machine shop told me not to soak/etc the lifters either. This was years ago.

 

I’ve never “pumped up” lifters, it is not recommended anymore.

 

Problem with that in the 45 minutes the engine is running and the cam is going away you are filling the engine with all that trash

 

I've been doing this since the 60's when I attended GM Training Center through the Cadillac dealership where I worked. Even back then SOP was using GM Assembly Lube on cams, lifters, and bearings during cam and crank assembly. Sounds like whatever shop you worked at cut corners, and did some shaky work. SOP was 20 minutes at 2500-3000 rpm's, varying speed. Never mixed used lifters with new cams, or vice versa, and never knew any professionals who did it, unless it was an emergency temporary fix to get home.

 

Mix the oil, the GM EOS and any other additive you're using all up before putting it into the engine. Have it all mixed up and warmed up before putting it into the oil pan..

Only use GM EOS during the initial startup then flush it all out. After that, don't use it in any engine again. Just use oil.

 

Makes one wonder how many variants to the " rules" there are out there ,starting out in ' 62 , I did what the shop foreman told me to do , if I wanted to keep my job , that was the rule ,whether it was good , bad or indifferent it didn't matter , as long as there was written evidence of the orders , he could order me to do whatever . GM TTC in Hinsdale ,Ill. was considered something GM wanted & the few days of " training " was kind of a joke. What was learned on the line to make flat rate was the only rule for the mechanic ,what would profit the shop was the rule from above !

 

Haven't put in a new cam in probably 20 years, but before that I never used anything but white grease on bearings and lifters and STP on the cylinders putting in the pistons Always used a good oil like Pennzoil or Havoline, crank them up, run up to operating temp a time or two then drive them. Never lost a single one. Ford's, Chevys, Toyotas, and VW air cooled. What's different now? Inferior metals? Inferior machining? Blind luck? Granted most of these were mild stock builds with maybe a performance cam but not much more. Has quality really gotten this bad? Or do we just hear about more failures due to the increased information we have now?

 

I had an reputable engine builder warn me about certain high-end oils. They have to be shaken up before pouring them into the engine. The good stuff can settle into the bottom and not make it into the engine. I mixed my cam additive into my VR1 and poured it in.

 

@BamaMav I'd guess Inferior metals, Inferior machining, Inferior quality check, as well as the increased information we have available now.

I watch a couple of guys that have back yard shops on YouTube. They are based in Canada.
One of them has recently had camshaft blues on a Big Block Chevrolet. The fact that forums like this one and video platforms like YouTube are widely available spred the word on such issues.

In my youth working at an automotive shop the customer may rarely know a part went bad during its first use. The Starter, alternator, or waterpump may have been "new" but faulty. You gave up the man hours and swapped the faulty "new" part out for one that worked. That information stayed inside the shop and the shops reputation was maintained and maybe you learned a life lesson. Now you can know and watch world wide people's cam issues.
The shop I worked on had a machine shop and rebuilt engines regularly. I often got to assist in the installation and breaking in of a newly rebuilt engine. I never remembered a camshaft or lifters going bad during break in though. We saw a lot of bone stock SBC (307, 305) camshaft replacements and sticky lifters in Fords though.

 

What high end oils are you referring to Bob? Or did you mean additives should be mixed with oil?

 

Well stated Moedog. Several years ago, I worked for a man who only bought and ran new Mack trucks. We knew the history of those engines from the day they left the dealer until they were replaced with newer trucks. In a certain year, we started having camshaft failures on trucks bought after a certain date. Over a couple of three years we lost 4-5 cams in likewise number of trucks with different drivers. Mack replaced them under warranty, no problem, but wouldn’t admit fault. This was pre- internet days, so word got around slowly, but it got around anyway to other companies running Mack’s. Notes were compared, lawsuits were threatened. Eventually it came out there was a bad run of soft cams, Mack knew about it and ran them anyways so I heard. Apples and oranges for sure, but just an example of how inferior products get into the marketplace.