Technical New purchased hydraulic lifters bad ?

A decade or so back a builder had some BBC cams fail. The cams, lifters, very high spring pressures used, oil were all looked at. Don't remember one specific cause being cited, but it was found that when the OEMs when to roller cams the zinc in the oil was eliminated because it increased emissions. Supposedly the zinc was replaced with "something else" that was just as good. Pre SM oil has zinc as does CI diesel oil. EOS, STP ect were also reformulated. But the other components can cause problems.

 

This was Royal Purple oil and the new engine failed after 1 pass at the track. The car owner contacted RP and they were the ones to tell him that the oil has to be shaken before it gets poured. Of course there is nothing on the label saying so.

Quite plausible that contents may separate while the bottle sits on the shelf and the good stuff settles to the bottom. I have never heard of this happening before or since.

 

That is their escape/limited liability clause.

Now that is good. BTW - It is CONFUSEDOUS.

 

HI-ZINC was removed to prevent convertor damage on the newer emissions designs. When this transpired, HI-ZINC oils were discontinued as an owner might use the wrong oil (the CAT would not be covered under EMISSIONS WARRANTY). HI-ZINC oils were later released for older applications but the containers were marked for proper engine period usage.

ROTELLA was briefly used by the hobby as it still had HI-ZINC, but that formulation was changed as diesel particulate traps became common. The original formulation was still available for older diesel applications but was available only in five gallon containers to hopefully prevent mis-use.

Same with additives. If you dump a container of additive into the pan, how many lube cycles and heat will it take for that additive to hopefully mix with the oil and become effective? Way after it is splashed on the cam during run-in.

I do remember using LUBRI-PLATE as an assembly lube ...

​

 

I have been following through this tread and with all the various comments on materials. procedures, and manufactures, It sounds like building an engine now days is like a third grade science project, what could go wrong! lol But I do admit that recent comments on lubrications and additive suspension have intrigued me enough to give thought to pouring my oil and additives of choice into a clean pail and blending them with a paint paddle in a drill, so that when I prime the motor a better blend of materials gets into the places I want them to be. Can't hurt anyways. Sometimes you guys make sense and sometimes not, but I always come away with food for thought and that's what discussions are about. Larry

 

The best way (IMO) to CYA, especially with a high ramp cam/strong valve springs is to use a dedicated break-in oil (and break-in springs - no windage tray - prime the system) from the start -

https://drivenracingoil.com/c-1389195-shop-by-product-break-in-assembly-oils.html

 

Thanks for the link, I am putting together another 390 fe with an Isky cam soon. Price is reasonable and it can't hurt to give it a try. Larry

 

There's really no reason to stir or blend modern oils unless you're mixing in additives that didn't come with your oil. With oils being available today that have ZDDP already in them, I don't shake or stir my Valvoline VR-1 oil I use in my flat tappet engines. Never did it back when this was the only oil, so why would I do so today with the same oils?

 

Mopar started using light valve springs in their stage wedge cars and the high pressure springs were in the trunk for this reason. A set of low pressure break in springs is a good investment. I found a list for SBC sealed power VS677 SBF comp 942-16 BBC comp 911-16 BBF comp 940-16 If you have dual springs leave the inner spring out. Or do what I did check with rebuilders for used springs. You can check use set of bathroom scales an old valve and a drill press.

 

This place is a lot like when in 3rd grade ,the teacher gave us a written message ,that was whispered around the class from one student to the next ,the way the message changed was always surprising & usually hilarious . If there was ever a setting where " old wives tales" were created & passed along , here it is ! Truly entertaining !

 

My dad had this big tin gallon can of Lubri-Plate 105. That can started so many engines off to long lives. My brother mentioned that he found it the other day. That can was like the Manna, lol..

 

Have a look at Racing oil ..."non API". Several noted, since their racing oil is off road only, not certified for on Highway, they never changed the Zinc levels. Red Line was one brand.

- Non API... sounds very plausible.

 

Lots of info here. Cutting to the chase, I have an Elgin version of the 097 Chevy cam that I will be putting in the freshly rebuilt 283 that I recently acquired. It currently has an RV cam and corresponding springs of some kind in it now. (Summit, I think)
I haven’t bought lifters yet. I’m leaning towards the lifters with the oil hole in the cam end.
Whose lifters should I buy? Several companies offer solids with the EDM oil hole.
Which break-in lube? (I usually use Isky Rev-Lube)
Which break-in oil? (Last few times I used Comp cams break-in oil w/a Comp cam)

 

from what I've real true racing oil is supposed to be changed often & the additive package is dead well before the 1,000 mile mark.

 

From a break in perspective...it's perfect. 500mi

 

Articles.... on wear.. interesting the DLC coatings.. this was used in high load diesel engine components well over 10yr ago. Cost tends to be the primary limiter. Also.. early in the break-in procedure is of note. Post 2007... diesels.. When oil formulation changes other non common wear began to appear. Many of these issues were addressed with improved surface finishes...

Trend Article:
The bane of flat tappet lifters is, of course the break-in period where minimal lubrication and valve spring pressure conspire to flatten a cam and ruin lifters very quickly. Aggressive cam designs and valve spring pressures only exacerbate the problem so very careful break-in procedures are required. Special break-in oils with higher ZDDP content are recommended and the best procedure is to pre-oil the engine prior to firing so all the oil galleries are full. Following that, most builders take the engine immediately to 2500 rpm to ensure plenty of oil splash during the 20-30-minute break-in period.

Typical flat tappet solid lifters are manufactured from hardened iron or chilled iron which is inexpensive and easy to machine. However, Trend's flat tappets are manufactured from tool steels which is much harder and stronger and allows the lifters to live in incredibly brutal racing environments. They are available in Cup, and Premium versions which are compatible with tool steel and cast iron camshafts respectively. In addition to strength and wear resistant characteristics, the properties of tool steel, and available DLC coatings, reduce friction which promotes power.

Good to see this tech making it main stream.

 

Sell the Elgin cam, call Isky for a 097 type solid cam w/ edm oil hole in lifter, the family still owns the shop. Other than Isky or Mike Jones,( Jones Camshaft) the rest , and I mean all, Comp, Elgin, Summit, etc. is a dice roll, if you want FT cam today, it'll cost $700.00+ for cam and lifters, maybe $800. Too much? What's the cost of a tear down after the lifters go bye-bye. Moly Rev-Lube& Moroso Moly paste only! Or do a roller set-up from same gang. Skip the ZDDP additives, use oil that has everything blended when it is made. I have used Amsoil, VR-1 or regular Quaker State 5-30 syn. Too much zinc is not going to help junk. Talk too Mike , or Isky, do some research. Good luck. Try Don Terrill's Speed Talk for more info. By the way, I love those old Duntov 12-18 and 30--30 cams for little SBC 's .

 

Not recommend by who? The camshaft companies selling faulty cams & lifters....

 

Correct. Detergent and dispersant packages can cause aeration at high RPM's. Racing oil is meant to be changed on a regular basis, such as fuel fouled and/or frequent tear-down. Even VALVOLINE VR-1 has reduced detergents and requires more frequent changes.

You have to be careful of what you buy and what type of usage.

 

I must just be lucky, I’ve never pumped up a lifter, I’ve built lots of engines, I was using the supplied moly lube 25 years ago and I don’t run special oil and so far all those faulty cams haven’t failed for me.

 

HYD LIFTERS, I always pump up, you could get lucky soaking them overnight in a can of oil, air bubbles can be seen purging.

Soak solids as well.

Soak timing chains while on subject. Pulled one off a 327 engine with a few years of street cruising. Still tight....

 

Will see how my 302 fresh build lifters look, will get 10 min on them... check lash... if no change I'll run it. Comp Cam... purchased probably 2012 time frame.

My 283...in my JR Stocker .. knocked over lifter box....all mixed up. . Just to spite people... I put them in surface finish is better than new lifters, .... 2nd year beating the snot out of it.. waiting for a cam failure...

 

I like OEM cams... 151 hyd... runs in virtually any combo, bought 2 Elgin 097 versions 2 mo back thru Comp Products for a Jr Stock build.

 

I like OEM cams as well. In my youth I had to have some name brand to brag on to back up my camshafts magic. My engine combo is better than yours. My car is faster than yours etc.
I figure now, the big three had a lot of college educated people working on formulas for cam grinds that were easy on the engine, sold to the masses, offered performance and a long life.
Somebody, probably in this forum is going to tell me how much horsepower I'm leaving on the table with these antiquated cam grinds but will turn around and scold someone for not running period bias tires or for using non-traditional disc brakes.

That OEM #3863151, 350 HP, L-79 327 cam just flat works.

 

Yes....OEMs built reliability... durability into the designs. Valves don't pound out the seats for 100k miles. Always tell people, if you do not know what you want...build a factory perf engines. Note 112, 114 centerlines.... thus helps exhaust clean out cylinders when running mufflers. Same as blower cams...

 

I forgot to add one important step.
If you buy a new cam with solid lifters- You should always put in new valve springs and set the lash properly!
The extra time it takes to do the job right is much less than the time spending tearing it all down again.
Be Well!
Brother ED.

 

One more thing about engine oil that that have good zinc and phosphorus levels.

Ive been told that these two additives in oil do NOT actually protect moving parts really well until the OIL is up to actual operating temp. I'm not referring to extra additives added by the user to oil ie EOS.

Take it FWIW.