Did any of you read the recent Hemmings Editorial (Hemmings Classic Cars) on new EPA Regulations for Paint??? I don't have the copy in front of me right now, but I interpreted it as basically this: In 2011, which is only 3 years away, the gov't will only allow licensed shops to buy paint, which will effectively prevent backyard hobbyists from painting their own cars, parts, or anything else... Did I misread the article? Again, I don't have it in front of me at the moment... Kevin
Couple of threads going on this already. Here is one... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229430&highlight=painting If you do a search and maybe just use Painting there are also a couple of other pertinent threads. Im too slow, beat by Tman..lol
This has been coming for a few years. The issue is polutants getting into the air. Another wonderful idea brought to you by the fine representatives of California.
No, it read the say way to me as well. I got a real kick out of the part where their "Public Announcement" was on their website only, and you could only submit concerns via their website during the 30 day long period which was over months ago (months before anyone apparently found out about it). I guess they expect anyone with a dog in the hunt to check the EPA web page every day to make sure they're not missing something that will end their livelihood (or in this case end a large portion of their hobby). Make no mistake, these Federal regulatory types are on a hunt for whatever power they can garner for themselves. If that means destroying a few people along the way, so be it, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette. ATFE, DNR, EPA, BLM, OSM, MSHA, OSHA, etc, etc. They all are taking wide sweeping grabs at control, using the power of regulatory interpretation to basically write or rewrite law as they see fit, with no congressional or popular oversight, and no recourse once it's done. ATFE has taken to raiding large firearms dealers (legal dealers with no past record of any infractions) and seizing their transfer paper work on trumped up charges. Then these dealers are either left to go back to their business, or put out of business (depending on how well they are able to weather a year or two without doing any business), but not before their entire log of firearms transfers are entered into a federal database. This defacto registration of all arms sold by those dealers, something which the ATFE has not been granted the power to do. How to they get around it? Simple, they "reinterpret" the part of the law that allows them to gather evidence against a dealer suspected of criminal activity. There need not be any "smoking gun" as it were, the excuse can be as simple as taking an "excessive" amount of time to do a trace on a serial number. What constitutes "excessive" is wholly up to the agent in charge, so they are using this grey area to basically steal as much information as they can. Information that is supposed to stay confidential until such a time as probable cause deems a trace necessary. Once that information is in the federal databases, it never goes away, and it is instantly available to anyone making a query to said database, whether they need to know it or not. The same will eventually happen with all hazmat (which by EPA's definition is a great many things that are not in fact hazardous, such as magnets and bottled inert gas). All welding supply houses required to submit their databases for scrutiny, so that all non-professionals can be cited for handling hazmat without a license. Same for paints and solvents. Same for cutting fluids and lubricants. Same for useful cleaners and degreasers. And the list goes on. Things are going to hell in a hand basket, and I honestly don't know how to fix it (if it even can be fixed). That kind of realization makes for a very sad Christmas IMO.
I would not worry too much. The state gov't in CA is more concerned with collecting their fees from the licensed businesses than going after anyone that is not licensed. Even if the un's are 10-1 to the legit guys. According to them, and I quote what I heard one DMV guy spew from his mouth.."Unlicensed entities are not within our jurisdiction, therefore there is nothing we can do about them" Stay off the radar, and you have little to worry about. I feel sorry for the legit guys, if this is true. Part of doing business in California. Results in your state may vary...
Look in the Q&A section for search tips. I searched EPA+Regulations and came up with this: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2917479
Yeah, Uh, three letter searches don't work here... Ryan's working on it but the slacker took a few days off to spend time with his family. The nerve of him! Now you two kiss and make up.
Everyone wants clean air, good schools, and a well maintained society in general but these same people forget that in order to achieve these goals sacrifices have to be made. Like higher taxes and rules on airborne poisons. Why do you think painters wear full tyvek suits with fresh air systems? Cause the shit is good for you?
Thank you!!! I think alot of people are too young to remember how bad the smog was in many cities. I like breathing my air free of toxins and drinking clean water as well. I believe as long as we do our part to keep air clean the goverment might let us continue to drive out smogless equipped classics. Turn the air to garbage and evrything will get hit for contributing to pollution. And, if I may. Why do people always seem to bash California when every other state just follows California's lead?
Easy enough to use Google to search here as well... just follow your search criteria with site:jalopyjournal.com and presto Bob's your uncle...
<TABLE class=tborder id=post2446003 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class="tcat2 thead" style="BORDER-RIGHT: #999999 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #999999 1px solid; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; BORDER-LEFT: #999999 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #999999 1px solid" align=right> #1 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #999999 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #999999 1px solid; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none" width=150>BigChief<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_2446003", true); </SCRIPT> Alliance Member <HR style="BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(hamb/misc/dl.gif); BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; HEIGHT: 1px; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none">Status: offline Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 638 Location: Honeoye, NY, USA </TD><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_2446003 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #999999 1px solid"><!-- icon and title --> EPA AutoRefinisher regs interpretated <HR style="COLOR: #999999" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --> One of the hats I get to wear here at GM/Trison that Im a Certified Chemical Hygiene Officer. I sometimes have to interpret these laws, bills, rules and regs and see how they affect the laboratories and operations here where I work. This is my interpretation of the bill. I've got plenty of experience looking and reading these things but what I'm explaining here may not be the end-all information you'll need. There are very likely local issues and other aspects of the requirements listed in other bills. I'm also sure some of the professional painters/shop owners here on the HAMB can also add information to this as well. BUT, here is the main reg and what I'm getting out of it......Enjoy. First off, this bill/law isn't about smog, the environmental issues in China or the Man out to get us. It is not about the trees, the grass or the birds ..this is about keeping some pretty nasty chemicals out of your body, out of your neighbors bodies and out of your kids brains (they seem to put enough stuff there by themselves these days anyway). The regs published in this bill are nothing new to large industry as theyve had to do this (and much more) for many years. The chemicals that are being targeted (methylene chloride, heavy metals and various solvents) cause cancer and nervous system damage. The damage is demonstrated and proven, this isnt a myth - they will catch up with you. These compounds are not user friendly and for a very long time the automotive refinisher industry has been fortunate enough to have the EPA turn a blind eye to it for since they knew (and the refinishers lobbied as such) that this was going to be a big change and was going to affect many shops, especially the small ones. This was an impending situation (doom?) that has been a long time in coming. I also do my own bodywork and painting. My dad had a resto shop for 25 years, Ive worked in other shops since then and I do my work at a friends shop and a garage I rent on a farm down the road from where I live. Luckily Im in an area that is zoned agricultural/commercial so using paints in bulk isnt going to get me into any trouble as long as I take care of business and follow the rules. If you are shooting cars in your garage at home and its zoned residential then you are on your own with the zoning officers. These regs will most likely give the local zoning officers more bite if/when the subject of you painting cars at your home in residential areas comes up. Many small shops and individual folks who are serious about doing their own work already have most of the training and tools they need to meet these new requirements anyway. Here are the requirements in a nutshell: Training. All paint companies offer training on the proper handling, use and disposal of their products. From what I can tell, this is all you need to take to become certified in regard to this EPA requirement. They cover all the required areas the EPA wants you to be educated on during these courses. If your buying paint from your local supplier chances are youll be able to attend the class at a local bodyshop or paint supply store .sometimes for free or a small fee. Believe it or not they DO want to sell you their paints and materials. You could also check out your local community college or BOCES/vocational school bodyshops for classes and courses. Certification is required every five years. Guns. No more conventional guns. Youll need to buy an HPLV gun and keep the owners manual and/or factory literature for it in a filing cabinet. Roll-on high build primers are looking more and more inviting........ Gun Cleaning. No more running solvent through the gun and into the atmosphere during the cleaning process. Youll need to purchase a gun cleaning cabinet. If you cant afford to buy a gun cleaning cabinet (who can, theyre darn expensive) then youll need to disassemble the gun and clean it by hand. Booths. Youll need to shoot your cars in a spray "booth". The exhaust fan needs to be able to pull the air out of the booth and through paint filters made for spray paint booths. These filters are not that expensive and it is not that difficult to turn your own garage into a compliant booth with some creativity and the right materials. An $80,000 booth might make your paint jobs cleaner/better but you dont need an expensive booth to be EPA compliant. All you need to do is prove the exhaust PULLS all the air out of the booth (with appropriate air turn-over) and that the exhaust is being filtered through compliant paint filters. Someday down the road they may also require you to have the booth tested and to register the "booth". Again, not that difficult to do or comply with. Methylene chloride and paint/solvent waste. You will need to track the amount of MeCl and solvents/paints you are using. Basically write it all down and keep your receipts. You should do this for all of your shop chemicals. The process the Man like to call this is the Cradle to Grave tracking of hazardous materials. If you really want to snooze and learn more about this process look up RCRA (the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act). Youll also have to dispose of the materials properly. If its smaller amounts you might be able to take it to your local town hazardous materials collection site (most towns have a designated place/area to take these materials from home owners). It may be a monthly, quarterly or annual event depending on the town. If you are making more than just a little waste youll probably have to hire a place like Safety Clean to come take a barrel of materials from time to time. It is not killer expensive and its much better than putting the stuff in a landfill with your household trash. If your using over 150 gallons of MeCl annually then its a whole new ball of wax that Im sure we dont need to cover here. So basically......Get your training. You probably could use it anyway. Go get an HPLV gun and learn to use it (I like them about as much as a condom but Ive got to switch too). Clean your paint gun responsibly. Fix up your booth with the right filters. Keep an eye on your chemicals and dispose of them properly .and be prepared to prove that your doing so. This is not brain surgery. Yes, it sucks but its also being responsible in light of how these nasty materials can hurt you and the rest of us. Happy Painting! -Bigchief. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________ The early bird gets the worm but its the second mouse that gets the cheese! <!-- / sig --><!-- edit note --><HR style="COLOR: #999999" SIZE=1> yup search button is your friend.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Anyone remember Lacquer? or Nitrocellulose? How's about good 'ol Dp90... We call it progress, folks. it happens. Why in the hell else would I have purchased a paint booth? The "Cool factor" of having a peice of equipment half the size of my paint shop? (Ask Bass how much room his takes up) They aren't taking large wild swings at our hobby. It is technically illegal NOW to do any painting ore than 10x20 (rough estimate) outside or without a filtration system now. There are loopholes on how many times a day or week you can do it, but it's there. How do I know? I asked my Zoning guy. Who are they after then? The "fly by night" paint shops like the "other 2" in our complex. No booths, in and out, damn near like Maaco. These guys are the "gross polluters" they are after. The booth does a lot more than keep the bugs out of your paint, fellas. Just my take.
I'm looking at booths for the shop right now, I hate to lose the space, but out of the quest for a quality finish for the customers and the fact that I want kids to be able to grow up without being screwed up from the air and the water. A friend just sent one to recycling, I missed a free booth by a week or two. Ahhhh.... and damn the good ones are expensive...
lovely, i would like to see a clean enviroment as much as a lot of people. i do my small part, recycle, im vegetarian, etc. but until we are billionaire lobyists nothings going to go are way. do you think some backyard painters or say atvs really pollute that much i doubt it but thats the type of things they crack down on. look at strip mining. HUGE pig farms and the factories right accross the border polluting. stuff like that getting cleaned up would actually make a difference but they have political sway.
My problem with the process starts when the sacrifices asked for far outweigh the good (if any) wrought by them. In this particular case, if water based paints can supplant the older killer stuff (IE work as good or better) and I can buy that stuff without submitting a urine sample first, I'll not bitch about the demise of the old. Living out here in the country, where the air is always clean, and a traffic jam consists of two cars and a tractor, I find it difficult to submit to limitations to "clean up" the water and air ('cause they ain't dirty around here). I really wish that the city folk would make rules that applied just to the city, to fix the problems that they have in the city, and let the country folk make rules for the country that applied to the problems we might have. Since we got less problems, chances are pretty good we'll end up with fewer rules, and that suits me just fine. The way I see it, right now we got the square peg in a round hole syndrome going on. We're all oddly shaped out here trying to be forced through the urban mold (nice and uniform and pretty), and what ends up happening is our bits around the edges get broken off so we can fit through. That's what happens when you take a country as diverse and huge as the one we got here and try to write the rules as if it is one homogeneous place, evenly populated with folks that are all exactly the same. Just don't work right. Actually (and I know this is hard to believe), mining is pretty green when you get right down to it. Sure, there's the big hole in the ground while they're digging, but before they leave a site, that ground is reclaimed to the point that if you didn't see the mine there, you'd not know anything had happened at all. The big gaping wounds you always see are mostly left overs from before the turn of the century before last (that'd be the late 1800's ). Back east they had a lot of trouble with coal mines before the 1972 Coal Mine Reclamation Act, but since then, there hasn't been a major mining scar left behind to fester (even if the company goes bust, they have bonds in escrow to pay for the reclamation process). Yes, huge hog farms suck to live next to, but we all like to eat pork too. Something's gotta give. You can't mandate zero emissions and also expect pork to cost less than $1.20 a LB. It is possible to farm hogs and not dump their shit into the creek (killing basically everything in there), but it's neigh on impossible to farm hogs and not have the stink blow on the wind, nature of the beast (HA! Pun ). I'd not want to live right next to a huge hog operation (like 100ft from the feed houses), but it's gotta be done somewhere. At least out here in BFE they can still find enough acreage to keep them a 1/4 mile from most folks.
Hippies? Seriously? Hippies have been running the place for the last 7 years? Freekin' neo-con environmentalists!
Another case of "BAD SCIENCE". When they took the lead out of fuel, an independent study was done using cattle next to a highway. There was no added lead to the cattle. It was discovered that the lead coming out of the tailpipe were falling to the ground. They took the lead out of gas anyway. Dupont made silicone breast implants. Dupont went bankrupt because the PAID scientists claimed that 10K women that had implant, a certain percentage and medical problem they attributed to the implants. When the scientist were asked if 10K women without breast implants had the same percentage of medical problems, they refused to answer. Dupont lost and went bankrupt anyway. Smoking laws, the study that all the anti-smoking laws are based on, the last page saids second hand smoke doesn't cause anything. This country seems to be made up of laws based on bad science, just to please the vocal majority and whatever will fill the government coffers.
There probably isn't anything that has not been covered. so instead of enjoying the HAMB as we know it just go to search! It's all been covered if you'll do a search. I agree that the search function sux. Kevin I hadn't seen this because I don't live on the computer and thanks for posting it. Looks like the unpainted cars will be around for awhile. TP Merry Christmas to all. Make friends with a body shop owner.
Yep. Hippies. They're to blame for the Iraq war too...I could lay it all out for you sometime if you like... ...but then again, this is a car site. SO, everyone go buy a paint booth. Or build one. If you're handy with a hammer and nails, and can do a bit of drywall work, and wire a few circuits, you can build yourself a paint booth for a fraction of the cost of purchasing one.
That's a bad attitude if you're on a well. And you should say that it's clean for now. As for the strip mining comments, well I've seen different...
The Jalopy Journal
