Projects Northwest Vintage Dragster Group Build.

Thought I'd better get on here and officially welcome you to the Northwest Vintage Dragsters group before you got the car done and running. Glad I did already get a chance to email and talk to you on the phone.

Also wanted to let any other interested HAMBsters know that we are having meeting on Sat. December 3, 2016 at Noon at the Lemay Automotive Museum in Tacoma, WA. PM me to RSVP if you plan to attend or if you need more info.

 

It sure is looking like a lot of fun! I wish they ran those classes around here! hey where is the pics of tonight's bbq? also can you run any motor you want?

 

Yeah kind of dropped the ball on the menu for the night..
Here are the rules Casual 6 (Walt) sent me,

 

Thank you for the info! What transmission are you going to run? Automatic or standard?

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We are building one with a 292 chevy 6 and a powerglide, one with a 300 Ford 6 and a manual trans, and one with a hopped up 270 GMC that will be a manual. we wanted one to have an automatic so more peoole would feel comfortable to hop in it and take it down the track.

 

We are currently building a nostalgia altered running a 261 inline 6. We have talked about torque multiplication and found the powerglide with it's 1:76 low gearing would just bog the engine. Using a TH350 with a 2:52 ratio in first allows the torque to work for launch without having to sacrifice top end in our rear gear. The 292 will surely work better then the 261 but I would still be using a lower first gear.

Warren

 

I have a couple old flat heads laying around but i bet you could make a gm inline six run better? what kind of standard trans would hold up from back in the day? But i also have a th 350 sitting there also. i do like the idea of the automatic so other people can run it also. Thanks again for all the input!

 

And don't lick the lamp post in December

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I have raced scot from Wash a number of times. He run a 292 with a 3 speed auto and I run a 182 glide behind a very similar 292. He beats me by half a car length every time. Rear gears are him 3.73 and me 3.50. Last time it was 11.22 to 11.28

 

How hopped up are these motors? we have been talking about what we need to do to them to get one of these under 12 seconds.

I had in mind to go with a 4.56 rear gear which would probably make up for the higher first gear ratio, but it's really just a guess.

 

My car weighs about 1700 lbs. I`m running a .030 292,flat top forged pistons, balanced , cast index ground crank,stock rods with small block arp bolts , compcams hydraulic lifters as recommended by cam help. the work and money is in the head. Shaved .030 to achieve 10 to 1 comp, 1.94 intake and 1.60 exhaust valves, z28 springs. Big block harlen sharp rockers. Valves are .100 longer than stock with smith bros custom pushrods. Head has lumps. One thing that is hard to believe is I`m running two 640 afb`s , Scott runs two 600 holleys. I know the common belief is to much cfm and you lose intake charge velocity well my car really woke up after Scot taught me that trick. I gained almost a half a second going from a 750 holley to this setup. His wife runs 12 flat with a stone stock 292, cam and headers. same style car. right now I`m running the cam 5 degrees retarded. You need to know that in my case, I have poor top end charge, could be the cam or just the crappy breathing abilities of the 292 chev. So you better get out on the guy in the other lane. I shift at 5500 and go thru the lites at 5600. good luck. this is all tru, I don`t believe in secrets in bracket racing

 

One more thing, You can build one heck of a big or small block chevy for what I have in this motor

 

That's if you ever wanted to build a small block. But back to the question at hand, what rear gear? If you go through the traps at 5600 and want to be doing in the 120MPH range, then you should probably be running somewhere near a 3.60 gear. A 2.52 low and a 3.60 rear will give you a much better hole shot then a 1.76 low and a 4.56 rear and you will still be in a comfortable RPM range at the traps.

Warren

 

3.50's?

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Yep 3.50 rear gear. Next number is 3.89 unless I go with a set of pro gears ( very expensive for a 9 inch) Remember the 292 has a 7.250 rod with a lousy rod angle and doesn`t like a lot of rpm. Know a guy out of L A that runs 9.60 class with his and can spin 7000. Has to replace the crank at least every season. Don`t understand the 4.56 application unless you run eighth mile but I`ve been wrong before. I`m going to put an injected small block in it for next season because in central cal, there are no like minded individuals to race and at my age it`s fun to work on

 

Our local track at Walla Walla is 1/8th mile, that was part of the idea with the jig to weld on the axle brakets was that we could have several complete setups that would bolt into the car.

I will admit i didn't realize you were running that tall of gear, the rearend that i was going to gut for the 4.56s it a 3.50. maybe i will dig in my pile for another one to do that to and save it for the 1/4 mile setup.

 

If I were to recommend a power plant I would think about the 300 ford six. I ran against one from san jose, cal that was capable of running in the 8`s. I got lucky because he was dead late or asleep. Hind site sucks on the power plant There is a guy on this board called the French town flyer that can run in the 10`s

 

Always interesting to hear of people's take on what's the best six banger and what's the best way to build the fastest, quickest six cylinder engine. As Dan posted above, many racers have gone fast with sixes and you can sink a lot of $$ in one to do that.

However, this thread is about building a NW Vintage Dragster and running under it's class rules (Rob was good enough to post the rules earlier). Part of the philosophy of this class is to get people out to the racetrack and have fun there. We'd like to see a variety of vintage engines too. That's why we plan to run a 12.00 ET Index. It takes very little to get a late model Chevy or Ford to do that. For earlier (or flathead) engines, it takes more work, but it can still be done within a reasonable budget. At a 12.00 Second ET you also don't need any certified safety equipment except helmet and seat belts. You can race in jeans and a one layer jacket as long as you have a complete floor in the car.

We want to use an Index as it is a heads up type of racing. Also using a PRO tree, it's more like a flag start. With an open car this type of racing is a blast. If you haven't done it, you don't know what you are missing. If you're only interested in going as fast as you can, this class probably isn't for you. There are plenty of other classes for you to run in.

So back to our regularly scheduled discussion: What does it take to get a 292 Chevy to run a 12 second ET in one of these dragsters? Answer: Not much.

A stock 292 Chevy is rated at 165 HP. Using a common ET/SPEED calculator, in a 1700 lbs car (driver included) that equates to a 12.70 ET. Want a real world example? Take this one that Dan referred to earlier. This is Debbie's (Scott's wife) Dragster:


It is a stock 292 with an Edelbrock 4-bbl, headers, and I believe a RV type cam. Powerglide trans, Chevy S10 rear end with 3:70 gears. Runs close to 12 seconds flat. A little more cam, some basic headwork (like a bolt-in lump port), compression (by head and block milling) and it would be well into the 11's.

Another example: My dragster runs a 225 Slant six. The short block is all stock. I milled the block and head to get 9.5/1 compression. Did my own head port clean- up and run a reground cam. I built a set of Zoomies for exhaust and an intake running two 2 bbl Rochester carbs. Also a Powerglide trans and 3:70 gears. Shifting at 5000 RPMs it runs 12 flat. Up the shift point to 5400 and it runs 11:80's. Car weighs 1550 lbs w/o driver.

So, I try to emphasize that you don't need to go crazy building engines for this class. Spend your time and energy building something fun and unique.

More later - Walt

 

Transmissions & Gear Ratios - Again it's interesting to hear what people are thinking is the best combination to run. But, this thread is about the NW Vintage Dragster Class and I will try to relay what some of our experiences have been.

First of all, for the stick shift cars Rob plans to run, per NHRA rules, they cannot use a stock cast flywheel. They must be steel. That means a custom flywheel for the GMC as I don't think you can buy one off of the shelf. The 292 Chevy can use a SBC flywheel and I think the Ford can also use a Ford V8 flywheel.

If you ever plan to run the cars quicker than an 11.49 ET, you will need a certified flywheel, clutch, and scattershield. At some race tracks I've heard that HAMB dragsters were required to have the certified clutch components even if they don't run that quick. It is something to be aware of. I also think it is a good idea to run a scattershield no matter what. That's one of the reasons all of our cars so far run automatics. It is simpler and cheaper.

Regarding PG vs TH350, for this class I don't think there is any advantage of one over the other. We have cars that run both with good results. I run a PG because that's what I had available and it is simple to drive - you only need to shift once. It is a stock unit out of a '70 Nova (a friend pulled it out to put in an OD trans). Never opened up and I've only changed the fluid. I've run it five years now. Nice thing is it shifts hard without a shift kit and operates like it has a manual body. If anything, make sure you have a good shifter. Seen too many racers screwed up by a cheesy shifter.

Personally I don't see the need to change gears between running 1/8 and 1/4 track in the NW Vintage Dragster class. The 12 second 1/4 mile Index goes to 7.65 for the 1/8 mile. Our experience shows that those numbers hold. If you run 12 seconds flat in the quarter, you'll be right in the 7.60's in the 1/8.

And speaking of gears, a mild 292 Chevy doesn't need to turn more than 5500 RPM's to get the job done (and you won't gain much by trying to run it tighter). 3:70 gears works well for both the PG and TH350. Should be OK with the stick too. The GMC may even like a lower RPM range.

The key to making everything work with an automatic trans is to use a good high stall converter. One of our cars ran a stockish 292 w/th350 and 2.70:1 gears (yeah 2.70). Then he changed to 3.70:1 gears and the 60 foot time and ET was about the same. The converter makes it all work. With a stick I think you'll need to slip the clutch a little to get similar results.

Keep going on the build - Walt

 

A lot of good info coming in, we really appreciate it! No shop night this week as we are on the road. next week we will re-do the shoulder hoop as per Marty and Roo's advise as well as punch a couple of more holes in the rear end mounting brackets.

 

Gentleman, I applaud you, not only for your work but also for your perseverance. Looks good so far and I'll bet it'll be great when finished.


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Scott and Debbie did a great job finishing that car up ! Rob, Roo should be your go-to guy on the chassis safety specs, he is the professional, and deals with this stuff on a current basis, along with being a great guy !

 

Thanks for the great info Walt. This seems like a more than affordable way for many to get into racing. Debbie's car is beautiful! I'd love to see some more pictures of it and also what other people have built/are building in the northwest. Has there been much in terms of competition at the northwest tracks? I'm curious how many cars usually show up for a meet to race? Specifically, is there much interest at Woodburn? (my local track) Is there many racers running motors other than inline 6's? Say any straight 8's or flathead V8's?

 

It would be wise to listen to walt as he is a member of the inliners hall of fame and an all around nice guy. As for me, I`m doing the small block thing because I have the motor and as previously stated there is no one to race in this neck of the woods. I will keep the inline in the hopes that something will happen like you guys have up there.

 

Does anybody out there know of any racing like this in Pennsylvania or near by?

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While you're setting up the rear end brackets, here is the SFI spec on the bolt pattern. It is a little deceiving because the picture only shows two holes, but the requirement is for 4 bolts.

And you need an anti-rotation device on the rear axle as well.

I can't find it right now, but I think there is also an angle call-out for the front roll bar hoop. Maybe someone can comment on that.

 

The front hoop angle is a minimum of 20 degrees, as I remember.

 

The SFI 2.4 spec has shown the 4 bolt deal since 2010 and Marty is correct on the 20 degree deal for the front hoop (despite the fact that one of my customers had an NHRA tech guy put a new cage on his dragster with the front hoop only about 5 degrees off vertical).

Roo

 

this is by far one of the best threads we have going right now [IMHO] and from a really great bunch of threads currently going. I have been tinkering with hot rods for over 50 years and frequently hear all the doomsayers drag racing is dead la te da and then my faith is restored when I run across threads like this. If you want to race it can be done , what rotten and the guys are doing is setting an example. we don't have to be copy cats build what you like make it conform to the safety rules and go have fun. sharing skills and ideas is where this all got started. and that is what these guys are doing keep it up guys.

 

Thanks Horace, kind words.

Randy got the tanks filled with some roasted chicken and awesome broccoli-slaw his wife fixed us.


My wife eating dinner in her office


We got started on the recommended corrections, first redoing the rear shoulder hoop to get the junction ahead of the upright and put in the required 6 inch sleave. this time we just went with a square design verses the trilobal design as per some great advice from Roo.





I like the square look just as well...


Next up i cut out some new axle brackets with two more mounting holes and then we used them as drill guides to correct the bolt pattern on the brackets that had already been tacked on the chassis




Meanwhile my old man (Steve) spent the night doing some cleanup and mockup of the front steering setup, he is modifying some model T stuff to work with the car. It is going to look killer!


He also turned out these cool adapters to use the model T grease caps on the Harley wheels.






The rest of the night we spent makin up some tubular braces and spent some time with some heave BS... and bench racing.....