I have watched OHV heads and blocks get O Ringed. Kind of a misnomer. On a block you center on the bore using the boring bar and grind a .040 wide plunge tool. Cut a groove .030 deep on #1 and move to #2 and cut that groove to intersect with the first groove making a sort of figure eight. Don't know how you could do this to a flathead or even an engine that was converted. But then you tap in .040 copper wire to seal a copper gasket. Maybe you are talking about getting some spotfacers and cutting a recess around each head bolt and water hole to fit an O ring that would need to stick up past the head gasket enough to have about .020 crush. You would have to cut the gasket at the holes to allow the O rings. I think that's is how I would do it if I was doing it.
Thanks to those who took the time to clue a new (old) guy in. Thanks for spanking me on my first banger post Weeks. (razing is a necessary evil with all you tough car guys. I get this much) In fact I did search but I'm old and probably don't do it right. After wading through dozens of posts about diamond T's and running boards and god knows what else I figured a guy could ask. I searched for model C diamond block. Probably too many words. Anyway, got nothing, but the picture and discussion answered my question. Get ready for more dumb questions. My boss will fire me if I read every holy word of every banger thread. Bangers are expensive so that won't do.
I'm one that believes that the "C" engine does not exist. The switch to counter weighted cranks in production engines happened in 1932. The 1933 / 34 cars that came with bangers were referred to as Model "C" . But the engine for the Model "C" cars were unchanged from the late 1932 engines. The same engines were sold in commercial trucks through 1934, but were not called "C" engines. The "C" cast into the heads of these engines are also a source of the "C" engine misnomer. Here is some quick reading on the "C" engine myth: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/modelcmyth.htm The readers digest version on the diamond blocks is that they were replacement blocks that Ford added a diamond to the castings to help differentiate production parts from post production. Diamond block were not used in new car production. The reason these blocks are coveted is that they represent castings that incorporated all of the factory casting improvements that were made during the life of normal production. That is why there are "A" diamond blocks and "B" diamond blocks. .
Herb, Waht do you do about the compression chamber with this setup (maybe I'm missing something)? thanks, Bill
YES! What is the story on the RAJO? Is it a B or BB, wish i'd never sold the one I had. Funny just about four hours ago I found a can of hardware leftover from it.
I'm hi-jacking this thread. Anyone interested in a 5 main crank for their four banger Ford? Look here --> http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419166&highlight=main+model
One thing that adds to this problem is that the 32 ford was known as the model "B" ford.If you research back far enough in the classifieds in HOT ROD you will not find "duece' or 32 shells advertised but you will find used model "B" shells advertised The reason that the 33 34 engines are called "C" is that as you stated there was a large "C" cast into the head. When the counterweighted cranks came out people called them a "C" because that was the common name for the engines. The engine we have called the model "B" did not have the counter weights on the crank. This actually wasn't an issue until interested people ( De Angelus and others) started researching the Ford archives in the 70's and 80's and couldn't find any "C" part numbers referring to cranks. BUT and this is a big BUT when you went to the Ford Garage in the 40 's and 50's you would be asked "B" or "C" don't ask me why as I do realize there was no difference. One of my brother in laws was a parts man during that era at Jimmy Fisher's Ford dealership in Chino. If you associate with oldtimer 4 barrel guy's in So Ca I wouldn't advise correcting them regarding their use of the "C" designation. It is or was common to hear an engine described as a "B" with a "C" crank. There is an article or letter somewheres in the S O S S archive's regarding a guy weighing diamond "A" blocks and "stock "A" blocks and if my memory serves well he said the diamond "A" blocks were slightly heavier. 3 or 4 lbs. There was a production change reported in 1930 regarding adding material to the rear main boss. Riley called these "later blocks" and recommended using them in his little book the "100 MPH model "A"" Hows that for trivia?
If you have a question and do not want to risk a "spanking" just PM me and I will gladly try to answer
Hey, no keeping secrets......If it's relevant, then I'm sure all of us would benefit from the info. Even if it may be repetitive. I had a shop teacher that use to say: "There are no stupid questions,....just stupid people" followed by: "The stupid question is the one never asked" Of course there is no prevention for the stupid answer. I was always amazed at the number of people that never recognized his sarcasm. .
My thoughts exactly on the Model C myth unless we are talking about model C cars which actually predates model T lol. Yes FORD made a C but it was primitive and not the elusive C engine we speak of on here. IDK stuff gets confusing and very technical I guess when it comes to periods of production and what they were called and why. I have old literature talking about the early models Henry produce pre-T era through late Model A era. I hear you guys on the Indians and chief deal it was just a thought as I woke up early this morning and had to check on an ebay listing ending back east. I want to be an Indian too but no secret sign language or smoke signals, smoke signals in the banger crowd means you got issues that need some fine tuning lol. I was not bashing anyone in particular either. I just noticed a the lack of tags and I find them useful for locating subject matter when searching. Seems if I type key words I get good results. JUSTPLAINBILL the idea of a common topic would be cool for a monthly inquiry though on whats the cheapest, best, innovative, etc. Would be cool for sure. Yes I like attention, everybody does at times. I also like to share my adventures with you all and hope you would be gracious to let me live vicariously through your adventures also. I can bow out at any time like some others I have seen do, but I feed off your guys enthusiasm for more knowledge and hop-up ability out of our cars/projects.-Weeks
Well spoken CDO. I might have some banger porn for you which you will have already seen (coughing... fife sppead... Coughing) but the other guys might want to see what I did over the weekend . Don't know yet if the pictures are any good, plus the dialoque that goes with it. Bit maybe tonight or later this week I will post.-Weeks
Yankee You wrote- Herb, What do you do about the compression chamber with this setup (maybe I'm missing something)? thanks, Bill Bill the combustion chamber on the Chevy 4's is all in the bore- that's why I told you about the longer rods--gets the piston higher in the bore, to increase compression. Makes for a lousy combustion chamber design - no "squish" area- so lots of ignition advance is needed, but Miller - Schofield - Crager used the same concept except with the chamber in the head. Where the bore touches the head, is just a circle. All the water holes are circular, so O rings work well to seal the water seepage (if any). With the close spacing of cylinders 1 & 2, and 3 & 4, an O ring would be a detriment, and isn't needed if the head and block are lapped flat. BTW- does your 3 port head have 2 water holes at the rear of the gasket surface- one about 1/2 and the other about 7/16 diameter? I don't remember if I put them in that head or not. If there not there, PM me- Herb Kephart
Since you brought this up, why are there so many questions that don't get answered? I've seen several guys ask serious questions and they get blown off, some never return.
I can't speak for everyone, but if I don't know the answer or know were to get it, I don't answer. If you asked a question and it didn't get answered, maybe it got lost in the fury of another topic. I've seen questions get lost that were asked during a "hot" conversation. If it does, bring it up later when the topic slows down. .
For the HAMB banger newbies, here are some links to a lot of banger info: Flat Ernie maintains the monthly link list. Every month is listed: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161498 Banger basics. another info link list: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251717 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42480 Maybe these links should be posted early in each months meeting. If anyone knows of more, please post them. .
You know, I really don't give a shit what you want to call it. I don't say counterbalanced "B' I say "C". Why don't we throw in the "BB" crank and really mess with some minds? I grew up during the second world war when there was no new car production so when it ended there were thousands of 1930's era cars for sale cheap. People gave them away! "A"'s that were made from 27 to 31 (yes, the first one's appeared in 1927). 32;s that were made for only 1 year, and I suppose it was just natural to call the next years model the model "C" as it had a big "C" on the head! And a complete styling change How do you like that explanation? They always had a numerical designation but until people started to restore them no one used the model numbers. If you told some one you had a 34 coupe they would ask if it had a V8 or a "C" or maybe they might have called it a 4 barrel but not a "B" with a counterbalanced crank!
Bill, I'm not far behind ya age wise, and your right. I never heard it called anything other than a C crank. Never heard of a B with weights until the last five years.--TV
I guess BB's have bigger counterweights then some regular B cranks also in 32'-34' from what I was told. Some motors came with counterweights some did not as already said. Some had pinned on weights some had welded, idk really but its interesting to hear the mythology and facts discerned for us here. No reason to get angry about terminology but nice to know the definite difference so when you see it you know it and you know why it came to be that way. They assembled the 27' model A(s) without even really road testing them at all and took parts right from the engineers drawing board, forged/cast them, and literally stuck them on the first cars to roll outta the plant lol. Whats even better is the cars were still accepted extremely well and performed well for the lack of testing. Its like how FORD had to revamp the e-brake and other minor parts for certain states and they just did it and sent them out blind to the dealerships. AR facts are interesting too. This is what I have read from some books I acquired published in the late 50s-early 60's. I like how some of the earliest heads were high compression heart-shaped ports with no special casting on them. Then they lowered the compression and took out the heart-shaped ports except for police vehicles which has heads with "B" cast on top to designate the fact they had heart shaped ports. "C" cast on top also denoted heart-shaped ports but was on heads for B motors. Confused yet?-Weeks
Crazyd, Thanks for the links- fun reading!!! Does anyone have info on pressurizing the oiling system on a Banger- I'll be working with a '28 Chevrolet block, but I'm guessing that the idea is basically the same on a Ford?
i run a so called c motor i also have some class motors with what i consider weak flywheel flanges but i am now considering building a ar block for my overhead i think this with a counterbalanced crank should be better
you better get your monthly banger shiet researched better. Anyone can start one and probably will, infact for posterity's sake i may. just make sure that "Month" and "Banger" are in the subject line: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129164&highlight=drop+yer+banger
Check your sources. The "BB" cranks were installed by the Ford factory in their rebuilt engines over a period of years. There is no record of any being installed as original equipment. I have heard that the "BB" designation was given supposedly as they were to be used in trucks. I haven't read of Ford mixing parts such as cranks in production engines, once an engineering change was made the current parts were used up and then the new parts were used This is probably another myth. I recently found a reference to factory spec's regarding the force needed to remove the "BB" weights. The information also gives the dimensions of the location of the pins which must be drilled out to press the counterweights off. According to this information it requires a press capable of in excess of 20,000 lbs. I don't have the information in front of me so I will just give a "ball park " figure for the press requirements. I don't believe that Ford ever supplied a crank with welded counterbalance weights on them. Another fact for you regarding the "BB" crank. You must remove the weights to regrind the crank as they overhang the rod throws. Some shops just cut them off but they can be removed and replaced. Keep reading and you will read about H Ford and an engineer or some one connected with production wrecking one of the first model "A"'s on a test drive. You also may read that the original V8's used in 32 were not very good, as soon as they started to use oil the dealer would replace the rings at no charge. One article or letter about Joe Gensa quotes him as stating he could get more races out of a "B" crank with welded weights than he could with what he and others "mistakenly" called a "C" crank. I think he said 3 or 4 hard races for the mythical "C" and as many as 10 for the "B". Boy, it is hard being PC
Yeah anyone can start the thread I understand that I did not join or start just yesterday. I lurked for a long time 02'-08' before having a car worthy of joining and posting about. I understand the ins and outs of the HAMB pretty well. It was just a thought early in the morning pertaining info that has been discussed alot before. Anyway that conversation is over.-Weeks More relevant info thanks Bill. I really wish there was info that could be nailed down for sure. I read conflicting things within Ford books that conflict depending upon when they were published also. I just present what I have read. Take nothing I say as fact just what one person has read. Some of the practices in the repair manuals I have leave me wondering how they ever were able to rebuilt engines properly or to keep them running after a major breakage. I should post pics of the practices and means they list for the DIYer to fix their model A with. Scary stuff a bit.-Weeks
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