O/T Armed Forces?

Yes to both.

At the time, it was the politically correct (not PC as in I'm OK, you're OK) thing to do. Tackle the biggest dragon first. This was during the cold war & targeted the Russians, not to aid the Taliban (who was only one of the hundreds of groups of Mujahadeen Freedom Fighters). But we have always played many sides - there are valid reasons to do so - politically. All instruments of national power. Tools of politics.

I think you will find our President did have the approval of the American people. The higest EVER approval ratings for ANY president (since being recorded, of course) - G.W.Bush in the four months immediately following 9/11 - he topped out at over 90%.

If by saying the government didn't have the approval of the American people, you mean that we didn't vote on it, I would suggest you go read the constitution. We don't vote to go to war because we don't live in a pure democracy, we live in a democratic republic (there is a very distinct difference). Only congress can declare war. The president may act without congress' consent during states of emergency through executive order. Which he did & the American people approved. The fact that they now no longer approve, while not completely irrelevant, certainly isn't germane to the question of whether they approved in the first place.

Yeah, that's a neutral lot. By the way, opinions aren't "news" - they may help form your own opinion after you digest your news from whatever source, but opinions themselves are...well...just opinions. I've got plenty of those. Free if you want them.

Realize that everything published, produced, transmitted, or made available in any medium has an agenda. Your choice (and it is a choice we make - where to retrieve our info from) makes your stance all the more understandable. But if you think, for one minute, that your sources are any less biased than mine or anyone else's, you're sadly mistaken. Their veracity vs other sources will be debated for years to come. The bottom line is, we come to our own conclusions based on information we seek out. If we are selective in the sources we utilize, or we choose only to listen to those sources that tend to support our own views, that too is a choice we make. It does not make any one conclusion more valid than any other.

There is no black and white. There is only the gray spun from the facts & interpreted with bias; my bias, your bias, the news media's bias - it's all biased. Bias isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is what allows us to make choices. Realizing that it is there is the challenge. Our biases are influenced by our morals, values, and beliefs. Trying to keep emotion out of arguments & sticking to logic only goes so far in removing bias, but introducing emotion will serve only to cloud judgment and increase bias which will only get your farther from the truth.

I understand and agree with the sentiment of your view against conscription. However, there is a place for conscription - military service is very Orwellian insofar as we're all equal, but some are more equal than others. Conscription, if implemented correctly, could be a good thing. There are, of course, limits on the types of jobs you would give conscripts...that would be one of the keys.

 

Dead right Ernie. If you want the truth, you've got to seek it out, it isn't going to be presented to the general public in any way that's readily accessible every day.


To stay on topic, join the service of your choosing, you'll be a better person for it and have a whole different perspective on life serving in any branch.

I'll leave it there, this thread will be locked for sure if I start in.


ps: make use of the "ignore" option, I'm adding a bunch to it.

 

I never said my choices of information are any less biased, but they are definitely more varied...

 

Edit: I don't want to perpetuate an argument.

 

***As per the rules of the site, I for one will not be participating in political discussion in this thread anymore.

If someone would like to get this one back on topic, please feel free to.

 

That's rich.

Regardless, please re-read post #83 - you have a differing viewpoint than the majority. That doesn't mean it's wrong, just different. Why not try to enlighten this young man with your reasons for not wanting to join the military. Surely you have logic that goes beyond politics. He needs to hear all sides.

One thing I will add - I find it surprising that of all the folks that have been in the military, the overwhelming majority have said it was a positive experience - even those who were drafted didn't put a negative spin on it at all. Pleasantly surprising, but surprising nonetheless. I think that point alone has merit.

 

I am currently in my 20th year as a Navy Reservist.

The Navy Reserve has been good to me. In the turbulent job market of the last 10 years or so it has been an island of stability, as well as the best bullet point on my resume.

I volunteered for active service right after 9-11. I heard stories about people who enlisted after Pearl Harbor and wondered if I would be the kind of person to do that. I was. Surprised the hell out of me.

I volunteered again for a customs battalion duty in Kuwait. I leave in February for a month of firearms training and then I'm off for 8 months of living on an isolated military post 24/7, inspecting returning troops and their gear.

Why? The nation, and the armed forces, needs me. In no way is my duty dangerous but I like to think that I can free up the personnel needed for Iraq and Afganistan.

My thoughts?

I believe in the Global War on Terrorism. This is a war of civilizaton vs. barbarism, pure and simple. And yet with very complicated details.

I also believe that the war has been terribly mismanaged by amateurs and ivory-tower think-tankers. Turns out the right has these as much as the left.

Is our media biased? Sure it is. In favor of getting readers and viewers, and thus making more money. They're smart; they can guage which way the winds are blowing and tailor their content accordingly. But are they lying? Not necessarily. The truth will out eventually. You can't hide it. And isn't their job to be critical anyway? I start smelling a rat when I think I'm being told what I want to hear.

And what about dissent? Should Constitutional rights be suspended or limited during wartime? My enlistment oath says in part, "...do solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic...". I take that very seriously and do so by paying attention, being politically aware, and being skeptical of those "patriotic" people who would condemn those who dissent as being Un-American. I am neither left nor right, and I get my info from many sources and filter it through my bullshit-meter before deciding who to believe.

The exteme right and the extreme left have much in common; chiefly a contempt for the majority of the American people. They're easily led sheep "brainwashed" and "indoctorinated" (they use the same language too) by, well take your pick: the "liberal media", Fox News, Karl Rove, the churches, etc., and are "sheep" because they don't believe what "we" believe.

To those who posted shocking, inflammatory and hateful things here, please go back and reread what you said and ask yourself if you really want to be that kind of angry and prejudiced person.

Peace and Happy Holidays.

 

I joined the Wisconsin Air National Guard back in 1999 where I am a jet engine mechanic working on F-16's. You can do the "one weekend a month, two weeks a year" thing if you want or I'm a full time federal technician. Sort of like the actives except you stay put instead of moving around every few years. I love what I do, the recruiters will bend the truth a little, they are like used car salesmen, but it is a good time. While the Army is spending years at a time in Iraq the Air Force gets the short trips usually a couple of months. I went to Balad Air Base last summer. Oh yeah, there are hot rods in Iraq, Jesse James and the monster garage crew built a hot rod hummer there a little while back.
Anyways, good luck with whatever you choose, email me if you have any questions,
SSGT Bell

 

I retired from the Air Force in '05 and absolutely loved it! I was a mechanic and got to travel all around the world. They send you to school and take care of all of your expenses. You can live in high-priced countries and not have to sweat the costs because they give you extra allowances to make up the difference. Sure, I went to the desert, but it was no big deal. I even managed to pick up some cool toys over the years and hang onto them. Now I've retired and opened my own hot rod shop. Livin' the dream!

 

It will change your life, most likely for the better.

If you do, do it as soon as you can, the longer you are out of high school or college the harder basic will be Trust me on that, luckily I was in good shape, others were not so lucky. Some guys have a real tough time of it. Plus regardless of your age, they will treat you as if you are just out of high school. So you may as well be.

If you are smart enough to ask about it, you are likely smart enough to pass the ASVAB. Which is good, but, do some research before hand. As was said earlier, score too high in certain areas and they will put you in something you may not want. I did well on mechanical and electrical, so I ended up working as a mechanic on a high maintenance jet (F111, F-16 later on). Not that I minded. Had I wanted office work there was no way they would have let me. Also, if you score well, be prepare to be mobbed by recruiters, especially if you decide not to join afterwards. The Marine recruiter who saw my scores swore he would recruit me by days end, mine hid me in a room away from him, not that it would have happened.

If you do join, do it to better yourself, the adventure, the camaraderie, the pride. Forget the money, there is not much anyhow. You will feel good for having done it, that is pretty much a given. Go in with that intention and you will have an easier go of it. Warning though, if you dislike authority, you will have a very tough time, they will break you. try not to stand out, at least in basic.


As for life in the (semi?) current Air Force...
If you end up on F-16's, expect lots of trips to the Middle East and to Korea in your career. Basically when not at home, you will be in one of those 2 places. When home, you will spend a lot of time training and at other bases. Your wife and kids will stay home. Despite them claiming to be family oriented and that family will help with stress, the married guys were always more stressed out when overseas than the single guys, and for good reason. Divorce rates for military in their 20's and 30's is well into the 90% rate.

As has also been said it has highs and lows. You can expect to work a lot some times, a bit less other times, but in general, it is easy work (Air Force at least) compared to regular jobs. Many guys have said it was the easiest job they ever had.

I served in the Air Force from 1995-2000, I served in Southern Watch, and medically kept out of Northern watch, I had orders to Korea before I got out after 4.5 years (6 month extension to get out of New Mexico). Was all of it worth it? To me it was. I have met very few who wish they had not done it once they were out, many wonder while they are in though.



Point is, do it for yourself, and only for yourself. Do not let anyone talk you into or out of it. I will not say all recruiters lie, mine did pretty well, but if they say something that sounds too good, ask. If you have specific questions, ask. Asking if it is worth it for you, is hard to define as each person comes away with something different and went in with different goals. Be proud if you do, it takes some balls. Yours will probably shrink a bit when you sign all those papers and step off that bus at basic, it's ok though, they come back bigger.


Anyhow…
Thanks to those who serve(d).


Edit: Edited down to a small chapter rather than a book.

 

Damn, looking that over, I now realize how long winded it was.

Sorry, as with most guys, we could all probably write a book, or at least a chapter.

I guess rods and grunts still go together today just as they did back in the day.

 

Gonna have to call bullshit on that statistic. You are not even close. It is less than 5%. Not to say there aren't stresses on marriages, and some career fields may approach your figures, but across the board, the USAF divorce rate is below the national average of 10%.

 

I grew up in the end of Vietnam era when the military was scoffed at. I never really thought of entering the military at the time, having gotten married, gone to college, then work and kids. However, I do regret now that I'm older that I could not serve my country. I wish I would have taken the time and done so.

I am encouraging my son to go. He needs the discipline and direction the military gives. Also, he had intended from his sophomore year in high school to join the marines, but when Iraq broke out, he didn't join after graduation. We still try and encourage him to join. He hasn't but he doesn't talk about why he chose the other path.

I think we'd be a better country with mandatory military service

I'm probably glad that I missed reading this yesterday until this morning. Monday morning quarterbacks SUCK is all I have to say about that.

 

It may have been job and base specific, they never said exactly.

We had constant rotations overseas. The deal was you went to Korea married and came home single. If you survived that, the first trip to the Middle East sealed the deal shortly after.

Over a period of 4 years you may be home with the wife as little as 300-500 days total. One year Korea, one year Middle East, TDY weeks at a time... It adds up fast though it can depend on how many TDY's you end up on. Whenever someone canceled at Nellis we were called to fill in so we were somewhat high, we also were the prime picking ground for Korea rotations.

I heard at one time a squadron at Pope was overseas 250 days a year and I know the EF111 squadron (radar jammers) rotated its people out constantly, they had people over there since Gulf War 1 up until the time they retired the jet just a few years ago. It was 3 months rotations, but I am unsure of the frequency as they had a little extra manpower. This was during peacetime.

 

Divorce rates for the USAF are available online with a bit of searching.

Officers - 4.15%
Enlisted - 6.91%
Combined - 6.35%

Interestingly, females have roughly double the divorce rate of males.

As for TDY, it's hard to beat AFSOC for # of days on the road...

 

My figures were for enlisted with less than ten years service.

 

Yeah, I just did the basic search on AFPC website - didn't adjust for anything. Still proves your point above very well - very low compared to national averages.

 

I spent four years in the Marine Corps right out of High School, and I don't regret it one bit. One thing I will say is, find a branch and an MOS that will help you out once you get back into the civilian sector. I was an 0341. In the Marine Corps, all of the 03 MOS's are infantry. Now don't get me wrong, I'm proud to have been a grunt, but there isn't much call for a mortar man in the "real" world. Just something to think about. From what I've seen, the Navy and the Air Force have the best technical jobs. And the Air Force has the best chow, hands down.
It all depends on what you want to get out of it. Just my $.02

 

Thanks to everyone who posted and let me know what to expect. I have always been told not to believe everything the recruiter says, and thought to ask the H.A.M.B., where i figured I would get alot of feedback. I still need to go visit a few other recruiting offices, but chances are, I will be joining one of the braches. I am glad that everybody from all point of views posted, it really helped me see where everybody is coming from and why. I understand the military isn't for everyone, I just needed to know why. I am single, and don't plan on getting married anytime soon, so I will be planning on seeing the world once I join. Thanks again for EVERYONE that posted. Dooce

 

Man this thread is long, lol. I haven't read hardly any of it but I can tell you that I've been in the Air Force on active duty for 9 years now. I personally like it most of the time, there are times it sucks but there arn't too many jobs out there you'll love 100 percent of the time. I can tell you that if you join DO YOUR RESEARCH! Absolutly get a Guaranteed job "Most recruiters will tell you that you can't but YOU CAN!" I'd ask them for a tour of a base if your near one and talk to some of the people in the career field that you want to be in. Ask them about the good and bad of their job. I'd say stay away from Security forces "Cops" unless you like working a lot of hours and going over to the sand box all the time. Also stay away from being a Crew chief, most people I've talk to hate being a crew cheif but to each his own... I'd say try and find a job that you can use on the outside, I'm an Aircraft structures guys and I love it and I can make a really decent living on the outside when I get out. If you have any questions shoot me a PM, I'll try and help you as much as I can. Take care -Zipp

 

Yeah, at the base I was stationed at, the "dining halls" were always winning awards. I didn't get a taste of the other branches chow but the soldiers, sailors and marines that went through there said it beat anything they had before.

 

An old thread, perhaps worth reviving for Vets Day weekend? I'm prior AirForce, joined in '71 and stayed thru it and the Air Guard till '79. bounced around from dealer to dealer as a parts guy for 5 years then got a job with the Army as a civilian, buying and supporting heavy construction equipment fleets (loaders, dozers, etc) and the Stryker briefly. Nearly 32 years working with the military, both in and out of uniform. One son and one daughter are Air Force vets, as is one son in-law. Daughter deployed to Saudi in '00, son in-law's been to Iraq twice since '04 with the Air Nat Gd. Here's a few pics of me 'n the kids with the "slight OT vehicles" we've worked with over the years.

 

that makes 2 of us

 

i was drafted in '66 . went into the A.F. . make sure it is what you want to do . you cant just come home if you dont like it . it is a commitment !!! be sure your up to it .
you have to make your own decision ! no one can help you here !
i was in V.N. in '67/68 . just my duty . dont regret it ! but then i did not get shot , so ez to say now ......... thx .. steve

 

Okay gang, before you jump all over this...keep in mind Raceron dug up a two year old thread for veterans day.
i can't believe it's that time of year again already. Time is flying by.

 

Hey Dooce, I spent 4 years in the Navy. After I signed up I was homesick for the civilian life, but I remained a gearhead the whole time. I now have fond memories of the whole experience, I am proud of what I did, and wouldn't trade it for the world. My most trusted friends in life are the ones who served our country. Really, life is what you make of it, but any branch of the service will offer opportunities not to be found elsewhere. Education is available during and after service. After your enlistment, your job opportunites expand greatly and veterans are given preference in most circumstances, especially good government jobs. Good luck in whatever you do!

 

One thing whats your grade average. 80% who enlist will end up in a support position,the other 20% get shot at . The first group will tell you there tour was great and the later would tell you different .I missed the draft by a year but my brothers all went . one was a cook in hawaii good times ,the other got messed up .My point is its all on you . are you smart enough to end up in a support position .good luck in your venture .c

 

Stevie, You are right. Only after my post do I see that it is 2 years old. However, my post still stands.

Hey Dooce, what did you decide?

 

was in the navy for 3 years. went to alot of cool places thru out the world. dont listen to recruters they lie. I was a damage controlmen make sure you pick a job that will give you a skill.pm me if you want to talk about jobs remember recruters lie make sure you talk to someone who was in.