O/T: "Older tools are better"... How old?

So you hear that a lot...

"Buy older tools 'cause they're made better..."

But how old is old enough?

I mean, you kind of know what you're getting with the higher-end/higher price stuff, but what about if you find an old off-brand power tool at a swap or online?

How new is too new to consider even for a good price, if it's made, say in Tiawan or China?

Is there a rule of thumb?

 

With tools I have to see em,,hold look em over,,older is better in most cases but there were old cheapy tools that ****ed then too ,,lol,,, But old hand tools seem to just last,,and with anything really depends on how they were taken care of

 

What Little Wing said is true

They havent made good affordable hand tools in 50 years, especially body tools and woodworking tools(i do some gunsmithing too)

 

I just got a drill press that was made in 1948 givin to me because the motor pully was bad.i fixed it for nothing (i had parts that i could make work)and it runs fine.the head doesnt wobble like the newer one i have! So yes i think (most) older tools are better.

 

I know a guy who does contract machine work for DOE,using 1940's machine tools,mills,etc...and they are very picky about their stuff,but he doesn't like the 'new" machines..I have a drill press,probably 40s,50s vintage,it has more steel in it than 3 new ones..works like a charm...I think handling smaller hand tools will tell you what's quality,and what's not...

 

So you guys wouldn't buy a used (power)tool newer than the '50s?

 

New Craftsman hand tools (sockets, screwdrivers...) seem as good as the old ones.
As far as power tools go, modern plastic bodied ones definetly are inferior.

 

I really need to rewire my late 20's black+decker, it's only 60 years older than me!!

With power tools you get what you pay for unless it's used, I'm trying to phase out my harbor freight with old stuff, i kinda like the feel of the old stuff better and it's easier to fix, but if i had the money i'd love to fill my tool box with good quality new stuff. It's 50/50 with me

Besides, were working on pre64 stuff, keep it all pre 64!!

 

I'm a tool stickler, I do not find the quality in the new high end stuff that the old stuff had as standard issue. For instance, most of my tools are from the '70s to early '80s. A majority of the powertools I have such as portable bandsaw, bench grinders, sawzall, etc... are Black & Decker (RIP they once made oustanding tools, don't get me started on the wallmart stuff) The only thing that I have had to change were the brushes, I'm thankful that that's all they ever needed, because I cannot get parts for them. BUT after years of hard industrial use, they still are going strong, they are well taken care of, but used hard. I dispise my newer delta drillpress, the sloppyness drives me up a wall. I have a small jet lathe that needed a bunch of small changes and adjustments to get it up to par. But it's an asian lathe. With the older American stuff, it was just built right. (probably by guys like clint eastwood's character in grand torino).

 

Im sure in the 60's there were still some good stuff made,,but you'd have to look it over ..Would'nt buy it sight unseen

 

Ha, I have all kinds of new power tools. Good luck finding a lot of that stuff, and good luck cutting a straight line with the wore out head on a 1960s sawzall.

Big huge industrial style equipment like mills & lathes, you can't go wrong with old stuff. Cause they're like cars and you can replace motors and controls and bearings, etc.

But smaller power tools you're walking a fine line with old stuff. You can't afford to rebuild all the little mechanisms for what decent new will cost. And in many cases the parts you need are discontinued or the brand doesn't exist.

Realistically, in some ways these are the good old days for power hand tools. They're lighter and more powerful than ever. Use some old school hand tools for a hard job and their luster will fade quickly.

 

i have a couple tire rollers, one i have used a little, the other has been sitting outside since the 50's, still looks to be in useable shape, yeah thats right a tire roller...lol

 

It's tough to say, because what might seem like an "off brand" older power tool, might actually be a great brand from the '50s that you just never heard of before or from a good company that got bought out by some more famous brand. But there are some old "off brand" tools that were junk when they were new. Usually the better quality ones have sort of an industrial look to them and you can tell they were built to last, and the cheapo brands have a ****py quality, like a drill that comes with a 1/4" chuck and the teeth on the chuck are all ground smooth.

It seems like smaller power hand tools you find in garage sales and stuff, aren't usually the greatest, because they were made cheap for homeowners. But most old large heavy tools like drill presses with heavy cast iron parts are really well made and last forever.

For hand tools like wrenches, the cheap quality ones that are really old are usually un-plated and covered in a layer of brown rust and you can see where the open end has splayed out or gotten all chewed up inside, and the box end has torn or smoothed over teeth. You can tell those are junk just looking carefully at them. But there are lots of old brands of USA made wrenches that are pretty good quality. You have to start remembering which brands are good and searching for those. I love looking through old piles of wrenches at flea markets and I occasionally find good ones like Blue Point, Mac, Snap-On, Bonney, Proto, Armstrong, Williams. There are some old medium quality ones like J.C.Penney, Husky, Indestro, Blackhawk, Plomb, etc., that you find that might not look that great, but work fine and you can get them pretty cheap. I have an ugly beat up Indestro offset 1/2" - 9/16" that always seems to be the right wrench for a lot of stuff working under the hood, and it never wears out after using it for about 20 years.

The main difference I can see in quality wrenches vs. ****py ones is they use better quality steel and hardening so they can make the wrench less bulky everywhere -- skinnier handles, less meat around the box end, smoother polished surfaces and high quality plating. There's a lot of manual labor involved probably in polishing a wrench. The wrenches that are the next step down in quality are usually just as strong, but they don't put time into polishing them. Sometimes when you have oil on your hands, a polished smooth wrench is harder to hang onto though, so the medium quality wrenches sometimes work better. A thin handle is good for getting into tight spots, but a thicker handle is more comfortable to pull hard on when you're trying to break a nut loose. So I like to have a lot of wrenches to choose from.

 

I have hand me down tools from my father that exceed the age of my 50 year old tools, and yes if you bought good tools you could expect them to last and they did. I remember my Dad bought mostly Sears Craftsman tools, Thier guarantee meant something. Today i hesitate to take a 60 year old craftsman screwdriver back as I,m not sure I will get one as good.

 

I think for things made recently (the past 5 years or so), Taiwan is a step up from China usually. Taiwan is rapidly becoming a modern country. I've seen some hand tools made in Taiwan that look pretty decent for the price. Like Crew Line wrenches from Kragen's Auto Parts aren't all that terrible. They're good enough to have in your trunk for an emergency.

I'd say if the company is at least proud enough to put a brand name on their imported wrench, that it's a step up from the generic ones that just say, "China" on the handle. The ones that just say "China" are really the bottom of the barrel.

 

I'm 62, and have an older tool. Believe me---its not better!!!

 

Actually, I'd say that the India stuff is the bottom of the barrel. Some Chinese stuff isn't bad, but the Indian tools are "one-time use", if that. But you're right, a brand name on a hand tool seems to indicate at least a certain level of quality.

I agree with Shifty as far as power tools go...a lot of the older power tools are ****, or at least they are now. And there is a great deal to be said for the concept of double-insulated.

Brian, they have, er, chemicals to improve your tool these days. And if the improvement lasts more than 4 hours, personally I wouldn't be calling my physician, I'd be calling everyone I know.

 

The biggest issue with older tools is that they were made domestically- and they were SERVICEABLE. Believe it or not, there used to be Tool Repair shops that could survive as a business. And tools really were an investment.

The real old-school way started with being able to literally make a new machine with another machine(s), and any part that failed could be re-manufactured on a small scale: machined, cast, or forged. There was some beauty and simplicity in that, but it has been gradually diluted over time because people naturally want more affordable products and they want them "now"-- the only way to deliver that is to manufacture them in m***. Compe***ion from foreign goods of course accelerated this process, until we have disposable power tools for the most part.

It's just the way of m*** manufacturing- it's just running it's course.

Even with that being said- buy good air tools- they run alot better and are simple enough that you can still buy replacement parts for them most of the time, and they really keep their value.

 

Most of my older power hand tools are rebuildable, you can put in new brushes and off ya go. Most newer ones have their motors held in place with plastic, making it difficult to repair them without doing further damage. I have a drill that is at least 25 years old, been through four sets of brushes and one chuck. I have a similar size drill, three years old, used less and in a better environment, it's dead...go figure.

 

I like looking for older hand tools (screwdrivers, wrenches, etc.) at garage sales, flea markets and second hand stores. I think most old tools are better quality, and I know this may sound weird, but I think of them as having history... I wonder what stories they could tell.
I have hand tools, good stuff, like craftsman screwdrivers, that I can remember 30 yrs ago putting marks on the handle with plyers trying to loosen a screw...

 

I have a old line shaft type drill press that has babit bearings it was my Granddads. It handles a 2" drill bit just fine. Also have a Cresent brand bandsaw it has a 31" throut with babit bearings that works great. Both were well maintained and are still in good shape.

 

My tool boxes are full of Snap on, Mac, Matco from when I was working at the dealerships. I couldn't afford to screw around with ****ty tools.

But I do have a thing for vintage tools, and now when I'm working on my old junk, I use the same tools that were available when the cars were new.

I'm just weird like that. I also have old metal cased electric drills and saws that work great. Heavy as hell, but work great.
I'd have to say that most cordless tools today are ****, as are most corded tools.

My dad still has all his Craftsman power tools from the 60's and 70's. He uses them all still. Never had one break. The stuff coming from sears now is pretty sad.

The offshore things to look for is electric tools made in Japan, not Taiwan, or China.
Those were the earlier ones. Same goes for old radios, appliances, toys..
Much better.

 

Someone mentioned indestro tools, We have a bunch of them, mostly large socket sets. They've really stood the test of time, I don't believe they were a low end tool. I'm sure someone posted this link before, but check out http://alloy-artifacts.com/index.html for brand histories.

 

There is good old and too old...when you go back too far in time, even the better tools are thick, clumsy and a bit weak. The very best brands like Plomb and Snap On produced light and serviceable tools back to their beginnings, but you would not like most 1920's tools.
From maybe late thirties up into the sixties was a sort of golden age...the good brands and the middle grade brands produced tools that were light, graceful, and strong. Do remember that the USA produced its own **** tools, as well, in those days! Tools had enough style, like the cars, that brands are clearly identifiable at a distance, especially the deco period ratchets. These tools are bulletproof and look and feel right to me.
The absolute top of the line was Plomb...my favorite, but can't find enough of them. Old Snap-on and Blue Streak next, others from Craftsman down to Wizard and Goodyear store lines are highly serviceable and often were made by the big tool companies.
Cheapest lines of tools were also made here, some from Germany too. After the war I think the bad USA tool companies disappeared and were successively replaced by Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and then China. I believe much Hong Kong stuff was actually from China proper, channeled into the capitalist world via HK and new labels.
Big power tools are better old, unless you have a LOT of money for serious industrial stuff. Hand held power tools may well be better now, and prices are so low that you can buy a tool for a specific job and not worry too much about its long term prospects.
The HUGE change in value between labor and tools drives a lot of what we do. We can buy cheap but usable welders and body tools for a fraction of what it would cost to have work done by a pro... a big reversal from the fifties.

 

This is all great info... I'm kind of a tool junkie myself, only I haven't had the time or money to go looking for the good stuff yet... I'm going to start now...

What sparked this discussion is I came across an old-looking Drill press for sale that was an off-brand.... Actually a no-brand Chinese made thing...

I knew it wasn't like finding a 40's rockwell or anything although, I couldn't afford that right now anyway... That stuff goes for a lot here in central Texas... Which kind of surprises me with all the oil fields that have closed down... But anyway...

So I go to look at it, and it's not really that old, but it feels tight and there's no noticeable run-out even at full extension... So I bought it for around $20 and will use it untill I do find an old 600# rockwell for a six-pack...

But back to the tool suggestions... No derail!

What tools (brands/eras) should you buy regardless of price? Are there any tools that are so worth it that it doesn't matter what you have to pay for them?

 

If you find a pre 1980 metal cutting bandsaw that functions both as an upright, and as a horizontal, buy it. It's worth more than what you paid. Virtually guaranteed.

 

I say anything old enough to be made in USA is old enough. Anything new enough to be made in China is too new. (Often it's the same brand name.)
But everyone's right: there were cheap and ****py tools 50 years ago. You have to hold something or try it to know if it rocks or ****s.
I've had some of each. I have a polished aluminum jigsaw that cuts like a mother&*$%#@, but I also threw away some pliers that came from the same tool box (by granddad's) because they were just horrible.

 

The big problem is that most old tools appear as singles, leading to obsessive and endless hunting. Eventually you have gone through 937 coffee cans full of rusted sockets at fleamarkets and still lack a proper 9/16 for your Plomb set, then you go on Ebay and discover there are 75 Plomb maniacs with more money than you have, and...
I guess 2 conclusions: If sane (I guess unlikely here) buy some no cl*** modern stuff in your price range and save your time and money for actual work on car.
If insane like the rest of us, jump to attention if you see a complete set of anything in olde Snap on or Plomb or whatever rings your bell! I used to buy a lot from a guy at Carlisle who just endlessly collected good quality tools, putting together sets from sockets of same brand and general age as enough ac***ulated. And sometimes you trip over the unexpected...years ago, I was buying up 9/32 drive Snap on trying to complete a set...mostly WWII stuff. Bought on box that had only strange sizes like 13/32 deep, typical set that has been pillaged for useful bits...
Later I needed the 13/32 for a Model A carb, and got out the set. Noticed stuff slowly, light not dawning right away...
the 13/32 happened to be exactly the right depth. Hmmm...the other sockets, all deep, varied greatly in depth...and all sizes and depths just happened to exactly match the jets in the carb. Then I noticed everything was 1930 or 1931, not the expected 1943...
I finally realized that I had scored some long-dead mechanic's Model A carb tool kit, containing everything needed, no more, no less. Confirmed the numbers as all Model A specials later when someone posted an old catalog online...

 

Old tools that have survived....
The **** tools that were made in the old days DIDN'T survive.

 

A couple more good old hand tool brands are S-K, and Diamond (Diamond tools have a horseshoe for their symbol).

I have an old Duro drill press that works great and runs really quiet. You can get really good quality old electric motors at surplus places sometimes. The USA ones that came out of old navy ships are really well made and run super quiet.

Some other brands of well made machinery are Monarch, Do-All, Hardinge, Bridgeport, Di-Acro, Pexto (or Peck Stowe and ...), Whitney, Delta, ...

Jet is an import brand that used to come mainly from Japan I think. From what I've seen and heard, Jet makes pretty good quality tools. I wouldn't mind having an older Jet drill press or metal shear or anything big like that. I think the older Jet stuff from 10 or 20 years ago might be better than the new Jet stuff.

USA made air tools are usually great, like Chicago Pneumatic (CP), Ingersoll Rand, etc. The only USA made air tool I've had that I didn't like was one made by Viking which kept giving me problems.

Watch out for import brands that have names that sound like they're something good, like they might be called Chicago something or Ohio Forge but they're really cheap tools made in China.