O/T: The New Camaro and Challenger

Everything I've read until recently said that there couldn't be a 5th Gen because the cars had to be made at a certain Canadian plant that had since been torn down, but you're right, the CAW contract expires in 2006 or something - so we'll likely see it. The CTS chassis sounds nice and I'm glad they're not tooling up something brand new, it should keep costs down.

It's funny you mention the wheels. I was just thinking about what it would cost to get 17" steelies made up so I could run dog dish caps to match my '68 - better make mine a ragtop, also with a manual trans please. I'd like a V8, but it doesn't have to be the top dog, that would follow the pattern of my non-SS 327 car. I would deviate into RS styling for my hypothetical 5th gen, it might help clean up that dog ugly grille. At the very least I'll be visiting an aftermarket supplier for a blue bowtie.

 

www.z28.com/jason/videos/concept.wmv

here's a video of the camaro from Z-28.com.

 

I skimmed through most of the posts here on this subject mainly just to vent. I've been a die hard chevy man most of my life but with a weakness for old hemis. Gm really dropped the ball here in the last 10 years or so but something they stayed on top was power train. The LS based v-8 motors they make now are absolutely the finest pushrod motors made period. Chrysler definately has it in the styling dept. So much so we bought a new magnum this summer and to make a long story short we are in the middle of a lemon-law suit to get them to buy it back. I found out we are not alone , Chrys. has problems with quality period. Back on topic I like the new camaro, granted it could be better in the styling , it is missing something. However when you combine the possibilities of powertrains available for the camaro it will be an awesome car, just keep it light and affordable. Sign me up!!!!!!

 

On the show circuit and in the press the buzz is always about the high-end, high-horse, high-dollar versions. Cool.....so they have a 500hp engine available. But in order to MAKE MONEY, they have to sell in volume. That means, in the real world, there have to be other engine options.

There needs to be more than a puny V6 or a mega-power V8. Can you imagine how dismal sales would have been with the originals if the only powerplant choices were the tiny, gasping six or the big block? It was all the middle range powertrains that sold in large volume, making the car so successful the first time around.

Build it, but give us some middle range V8's that don't cost an arm/leg in price and insurance.

Convertible? I'd like to see it, but the price and performance would put it squarely against the Solstice/Sky.......Which would you rather have for $25k? A small V8 Camarobird or a turbo 4 banger Solstice?

 

Well for me, and everyone else who had kids under 8 I'd take the 4 seater camaro, but then I'd take one over a Z06, seriously....Most likley the camaro will be the smaller v-8 (5.3 liter??) then the SS version will have the LS2, they have pretty much done that with the entire chevy lineup. If they're smart they will make a 6er for the chicks..

 

Might as well join the Chevy bashing.No wonder GM is hurting.I bought a new fully loaded '05 Impala,and that will be the last for me.It is a rattle can pile 'o junk.Then I loose my ass on it when GM brings out employee pricing.I can't give this car away now.

I will take the new Challenger.If Chrysler sticks to the concept,gets it ready for production,then brings the first one to Barrett Jackson,they would set the tone for future sales.

I still find myself rubber necking at the new Mustangs everytime one drives by.I even like the v-6 Mustang with the Shelby inspired wheels.Ford nailed it with that one.

The Camaro concept to me does resemble a '69 Camaro...but only in the quarters.They are so far off with the grille and rear fascia it isn't funny.All jabbing aside,if GM retooled and built a Camaro with the original dies,LS1 motivated and updated suspension and interior,they would sell a ton of them.Retro sells.

The HHR is pathetic.SSR was kinda neat,but about double what it should have been.

Even a 4 door Charger is cool to me...with a HEMI.

 

The grille on that Camaro looks like crap. The rest of the car is ok. The Challenger looks good, but I don't care for the rear brake light panel. If they actually build that Challenger with the 6.1 Hemi, I'll be very tempted to buy one.

 

Here is where a majority of the problem lies:

The Dealer-Period!
I worked @ a Buick Dealer from 82-98, I was free to try other things as well though.
While there, I saw gouging @ it's worst.
Example: 84 Regal T-Type V6 turbo-Sticker-$21,5k loaded, adendum-$25k
We're talking, absolutely nothing added to the vehicle, There was a waiting list for them, Same with 85-87
87GNX-Sticker-$32,8k Bought by a M.D. paid $37,9 w/o t&l.=never drove it,
brought in for 1st service on a roll back a year later with 11mi on the odom.
Prowler: Saw the one cruising Pleasanton early 90's Projected price tag $30-35k
When they came out, dealers wanted $60k Same with the Viper but much more $'s.
V.W. Beetle projected price $17k dlrs hiked em up $5k and people bought em.


Personal Experience: 2002 Ford T-Bird, projected price $35k seemed reasonable , I wanted a black one to go with my 55 blk one.I see one @ my local Chinese conglomerate owned Ford dealer, I look @ the sticker It's like $39k then to the right of that was an adendum sticker adding $11k onto it because it's black has the "Chrome" wheels which are listed on the factory sticker as an extra cost option billed for on the sticker. Go Figure???
Guy walks out, thinks he's got a fish on the line, see's my 55 & asks "is that what you gonna trade in?" He says that they can get me $10k for it=Yipee !!!
I tell him "give me $50k & you got a deal "
"oh but that's an old car!" I tell him "this one just goes up in value,That one is gonna drop like lead balloon" It stayed there for a few weeks then sold to somebody, but not me. No Frickin Way was I ever gonna pay sticker for a T-Bird, so I put the word out that I was on the hunt for one.
Chip, Brizio & Saleen did their versions, but no way was Ford going to give my 60 yr old company a "$1 car" like they did they big the big boys. I didn't ever bother asking.
So the day of the LA roadster show I get a call to drop what I'm doing & get out to the valley to have a looksee @ a 2k2 Blk on Blk t-brd. I tell the guy "It's gotta wait till monday" He says "It may not be here then." " I tell him that I'll take that chance"=It was there! It was a nice one albeit a lil hurt on the left side
but the price was way doable. Pat & I bought it that day. $1500.00 later she looked like new.

With dealers involved I've got a feeling that this is what is gonna happen to the Camaro & Challenger. I'll see what happens though. Concepts look great, production cars differ though. Mustangs are way high priced too! I like the excitement that this is generating though!!!!!!!!

 

I too like the Challenger better. I've always like the lines of the 70-74 E body MOPARS.

I like the new mustangs too. Especially legend lime. My plans for the 68 satellite is to paint it that color. It was a light green originally.

I sold recently a 97 CamaroSS with the 6 speed. What a blast to drive.

I would buy the Challenger. I even like the magnum wagon and they are fast too.

 

The Challenger is awesome. The Camaro sucks. It looks like the slab sided Cadillac STS.

 

I love 'em all...even the GTO.

I am especially curious to see how they evolve. The concepts are one thing; the actual production versions another, and what evolves after a couple years of production is another animal altogether.

The new Shelby Mustang is near 500hp.

The 6.1L Hemi is at 425, but more is planned.

The LS7 in the Z06 is rated at 505hp.

Give each of these new cars (GTO included!) a couple years to evolve, become refined, and let the aftermarket begin to work their magic. Personally, I am incredibly impressed at the performance of these new musclecars, and that's not just because of the horsepower. The emissions and fuel economy are phenomenal, especially when compared to anything approaching their performance level from back in the day.

It wasn't long ago it took a big-block with a 6-71 blower to make 500 horses. Now you can get it with a warranty, low emissions, and near 30 mpg.

It's a great time to be a car guy, regardless of what you like. All the best stuff is better than its ever been, and the new stuff is refined to a level no one would have believed only 20 years ago.

I will buy one of these new musclecars, but I intend to wait until they're out for a couple years to make up my mind. I have a feeling they'll be "ripe" with refinement by then, and the aftermarket will have powertrain and suspension mods available to make any of them borderline insane...which is right where I want to be...

Congrats, Detroit. You're finally pulling your head out.

~Scotch~

 

OMG!!! What on earth is happening to muscle cars. That camaro is ass ugly.
I thought the new mustang was gross. I think foxbodies were tits.

 

I used to work at the Chrysler Tech center when they rolled out the Charger concept car and it looked awesome, retro looking like the Challenger is now. Unfortunately when they went to production they changed it to what you see now. Not that its bad, I actaully like it, but it just way diffrent from what it was supposed to be. If they bring the Challenger to production hopefully they won't change it much.

Same with the Camaro, hopefully they won't change it much. But how many people remember the Aztek concept car. It was awesome and GM said their taking it to production. Then they roll out the current production Aztek, which I feel is best described as "If a piece of shit, actual human waste, could materialize into an automobile that piece of shit would be the Aztek." GM is notorious for that, changing stuff when it goes production.... Well thier notorious for that and for shitty quality. If your bored one day research the 3.4 intake gasket problem on the internet. We just traded in my wives Rendevous because of it. JUNK! And it's basically in every front wheel drive car that GM makes... But I digress.

Both cars look sweet.

 

Yeah, you can get a 500hp factory hotrod to play with. Just remember, every one of them have a black box that records the speed.
Think the insurance companies won't have a heyday when you take it in to be estimated after a wreck?

I'll stick to my old cars and give the rest the bird.
r

 

Seeing as the GTO is based on a 1997 design, you're not far off....you do know it's an Australian car, right? We have much more reserved (European?) styling tastes than the American market. Unfortunately, they uglied it up to somehow look like a Pontiac.

 

I always liked the first gen Camaros, my first frame off I was on a RS/SS Camaro convertible I had, one of several 67 and 68 models I used to own, so I was hoping for something much cooler, thinking the new one would be closer to an 69 RS/Z28, yes, got to admit the Challeger looks better. The Camaros grill and tail are all wrong. How hard is it to copy something loosely that you built 40 years ago? What is it with GM and their styling lately, all hard edges, razor lines, maybe its just me, but I think they need some new (or old) blood in the design area. Everythink looks like a cadillac...except the vette and it could do with a new look.

Take the SSR, looked way cooler in prototype form, then lame in production, no wonder they arent selling.

I wish they'd have a "Fix the Camaro" contest........Gotta give it to Chrysler, and I'm a GM guy usually.

 

Great, I gotta get in this discussion!! Here goes,

1. I can't drive by a '05 Mustang without doing a doubletake! Ford got this one right. The Foose built "Overhaulin'" '05 Mustang is awesome.

2. The GTO is a disappointment! But, it's extremely fast off the showroom floor. If they only would of put double scoops in the hood and retro GTO emblems on the lower front fenders they woulda sold a million of 'em.

3. The concept Challenger is, yes, a Stunner! I'm hooked.

4. I like the '05 Charger, it has possibilities.

5. All GM has to do is remake the '69 Camaro or '66 GTO in it's original trim and all with a modern chassis, suspension, powerplant, and interior appointments and price it very, very right, and they would sell a Gazillion of 'em!! All us Boomers would be tripping all over each other to have one and you know you "Young Turks" couldn't resist one either. (That '67 GTO done by Foose on his show last night is what I'm talking about)

I'm done, thank you all for reading!

Joel

 

WHY IS EVERYTHING SO BLOCKY!!!!
Its like nintendo 64 for cars...

 

Well, I guess I'm going to go against the grain here. Don't get me wrong, all these cars look ok, because I liked the originals. But these cars are anything but original (styling wise). The Challenger is the worst offender. It looks like a '70 Challenger! Looks like a Foosified 35 year old car to me (and I'm a fan of Chip Foose and the '70 Challenger). It's just not very innovative design wise. Neither is the Mustang, Cooper, VW Bug, Ford GT, SSR, PT Cruiser and a host of other "Retro" cars. I will say that new GTO looks like hell-or like a Grand Am...yawn!

What ever happened to the great designers? Harley Earl, Bill Mitchell and the likes? They would never re-hash an old design. It was about innovation and the future, not the past. They may not have always hit a home run, but they were always trend setters. I think they need to start having design students learn to draw again. This CAD shit makes any uncreative hump a "designer."
Detroit has run out of ideas, so we get these design re-treads. Doesn't really inspire me to buy one, but does make me want an original more I guess. The masses eat this crap up, so they'll sell a ton of them. Watch what happens to the price of the originals now!

-Rant off!

 

I expected better for the new Camero. I agree with just about everybody else on this one. The Challenger is perfect.

 

I went to the Detroit auto show tonight and saw the Challenger and Camero. I must preface this by saying that I'm a die-hard Mopar guy and would buy/lease the Challenger if they build it.....but I like the Camero better......

The reason we all like the Challenger is because it is nothing more than a tweaked original, something we all have running around in the back of our head and could build in our garages. Nice design, but it's already been done (almost exactly) before. Still...I'll have one because I was not born in time to make the first go-round.

The Camero as a whole is much more of a hot rod. It's lower and more agressive than the Challenger..just what a muscle car should be. But, as it is shown, will not make it to production. The roof is too low and the front and rear overhangs might be too short to get the desired impact ratings. I'm not crazy about the grille, but the bulged hood, roof profile, flow of the door to the quarter panel are much better styled than the Xerox copy that is the Challenger.
The interior is more impressive on the Camero too. The two large square gages just seem to balance better than the Challengers four across arrangement.

But most importantly, you've got to check out are the models at the Maserati, Lamborghini, and Ferrari displays. Wow!

 

When Quebec's and Canada's government granted an interest free loan of 220 million CDN until year 2017 + 100 million tax break to GM, they sure thought that the plant had to stay open until at least 2017. We got screwed big time on this one. Now that the plant is demolished and a few years have passed, GM execs must laugh hard while they're planning on spending that money to build the new Camaro elsewhere.

I just hope the FUCKERS give us our money back in 2017, but I doubt it. GM will have gone bankrupt by then.

 

Eh, I'll throw 2 cents in...

Evidenced by the replies, lots of you guys are down on Detroit (or Stuttgart, as the case may be)

Starting on the first page with "Corvette lacks the attutude of the original" WTF does that even mean? In the right color, the C5s and C6s are far and away the most menacing looking domestics on the street. And, by the way, ever driven one?? A stockish C5 will demolish almost anything street legal in a straight line, AND in the twisties, AND stop on a dime afterwards, AND get good mileage doing it, AND if that's not good enough, man up and try it in a new Z06.

Same thing with the GTO, except, yeah, Holdens look like Cavaliers. Which is exactly why I'm looking for one currently. Not that I like Cavaliers, but it's pretty much like driving a Corvette with a disguise on. Maybe I'm screwing up here, I enjoy driving Vettes because they're a serious drivers car with some amenities thrown in, not because I have lots of chest hair and gold chains. So yeah, GTO would fill the bill nicely, since I spend 50% of my time NOT wanting to be seen.

The new Camaro concept? Ballsy, if you ask me. Sure the grille looks different, then again, it's 2006 currently. There's still enough there to make every single person responding to this thread think "Whoah, that harkens back to the 69 cars". And to me, that's where the Challenger falls flat. Its TOO MUCH like the old cars.

To me, as far as "retro" styling goes, all of the Big 3 are headed in the right direction. It's not about creating the spittin image of a classic, it's about creating something with the same spirit. Said spirit in this case being a whole lotta go fast. And I think they should all be applauded for having the balls to market muscle cars, and hell for that matter, SUVs, in todays market.



Before you all think I have weird perspectives for a HAMBer, I should point out that I may be a paradox. I drive a new F150, am a GM technician that used to work for Chrysler, and my currrent projects include a 34 Ford pickup, and a 29 A coupe, and I'm looking for the right deal on an 06 GTO. And don't tell her, but Wifey is getting a C5 Z06 for Christmas this year.

 

Well put.
I've driven both Z06 and 'standard' newer vette's..and they flat out fly!
And the black '06 that was in the shop in the fall looked pretty bad..to me anyway.
We've been talking about this subject here too.. And believe it or not, most of the guy's i've talked to, even though they love the challenger..all agree that it's too much like the original.. Someone even mentioned it looked like Foose smoothed off an original and gave it to Chrysler for the show! LOL

The key, i believe, is creating "new" car's, with some of the soul of the old one's. Styling cue's a must, along with making sure they have the performance to back up the namesake that each has..
The ford boy's really hit it with the Mustang. They built a car that has deffinate trait's of the early one's, but added enough modern looks to it to appeal to many different buyers. Although you need to step up the cobra or roush to get the real heat under the hood from what i've been told..
I feel the Camaro will do the same..
The challenger i'm not so sure will do that.
Sure they will more than likely be a big hit IF they roll them out just like the show car's, but the market for it *may* be centered around those who knew them from day's gone by.. or guy's like us..
BUT for the younger guy who could care less about the history of these car's, but just wants something 'cool' to rip around in and impress his girl..he's probably going to look for something that looks more modern than a '70 dodge, no matter how cool it is.
If they were building these car's for 'us' all they need to do is restamp the old one's and we'd be happy...but the're not..
They have to market these thing's so that not only 'us' car guy's would want one, but the kid up the street and the girl a few blocks away as well..

I guess i just think it's cool that the "big three" may be producing something that the generations to come will be able to look back on as we did with the 60's muscle cars..
The're all a LOT better than ANY ricer out there and i don't give a shit how fast those little fart canned pieces of shit are...the're NOT a muscle car,all these are.

This is only my rambling's here so take it with a grain of salt..
All that said, i'd still buy a new Camaro if i could..

 

Actually CAD shit (I'm a cad guy) doesn't have much to do with designs initially. They are still done on a drawing board, and then modeled up in clay. The reason we don't see innovation in design is no one want's to stick there neck out being far reaching (can you say Aztech!) and after concept the design goes to committee. Besides the fact that current regulations on crash test, getting proper steering, designing for a 5' woman AND a 6'4" man, and 3 different engine blocks usually changes the look of a car from concept to production.

They say a Camel is a Horse designed by committee.

ALL the car companies design by committee. A guy next to me worked on the windshield washer bottle for the Z06. Every week and by the end everyother day he had no less then 5 people telling him how this bottle shoud look, fit, and perform, a FUCKIN Washer Bottle! I can't imagine what greif a designer of a part that actually is seen must go through!