out of curiousity is it "Knipper" on the valve cover, i was thinking about it at work, and there was a Billy Knipper that raced Lancia's (he won the light car race at the Savannah Grand Prize in 1910 and 1913, my dates may be off) i wonder if he had anything to do with it?
Nope, definitely "Knepper", but you never know, it could be a play on his name. I'll look into that lead as far as I can. It isn't even close to running, there are many missing pieces, like most of the valvetrain. So it may just get cleaned up cosmetically and live in a glass case. It will be a while before I get the chance (out of town for the holidays) but I'll take more pictures if there is interest. It certainly would be cool to learn the life of this motor prior to 1950.
i have a copy of the Savannah Grand Prize, i will pull it when i get home and check it out (i could have spelled his name wrong for all i know) great engine!
I only wish it was Knipper (Billy Knipper) because that would be back in the era that is the basis for my insanity. It is possible for their to be another SOHC back in the teens because after the Peugeot OHC cars a bunch of people on both sides of the pond started building them (both DOHC and SOHC). Some were rather obscure like DePalma's DOHC built in Detroit and then the MILACS built in LA (Milac was an acronym for Made in Los Angeles California and they built 2 sizes). The look of this SOHC looks pretty neat but it could be something from the 20s through the 40s as well. A bunch of great stuff was built from 1915 thru the fifties and if it has some Willys parts it would make me start looking post Willys and try and factor in the cubic inch. I will try to back track from the sixties maybe to see if Knepper was running some other racers. I believe he ran at the Indiana tracks mainly but I am going back only on memory which is not foolproof. Jim
........with a chain hoist hanging from a beam in my dad's shop. The motor is all aluminum and ONLY weighs about 2300 lbs.
Looked up in Fox's book and Arnie Knepper ran in the 65, 66, 67, 68 and 69 Indy 500s and failed to qualify in 70, 71,72 and 73. Maybe his dad or relative built it as there were some 151 Millers and Duesenbergs in the 31 and 32 Indy and Millers in the 33 and 35 Indy. Might be fun tracking it down.Jim
Pontiac v8 parts all interchange on the 4but you guys already know that but from expierience you'll sub a v8 dist cap only once without sealing off the open wire terminals !only a 12 year old kid will try this then grab the dist to time it
well, it was not so much that it was that Knipper raced in the teens, but that ment he would still have been (theoretically) racing in the 20's and maybe the 30's. i thought it made a little more sense than a guy racing in the 60-70's (assuming the Knepper was in his 30's - 40's while raing at indy) building a 4 banger (especially out of the materials used, i swear those are Miller intake manifolds, or atleast 20's era) but Knepper...i am still at work so i have not checked yet.
They look similar, and maybe they are, but I (we, really, it's my dad's engine) see elements of miller and clemmons engines in this one. It could be a true oddball one off by someone who copied them, or it could be the survivor of a small production run by who knows... The displacement seems to imply it could have initially been a boat engine, since I understand there was a boat 150ci formula around that era. (late 20's to 30's). We're hoping that someday a picture of a car or ? will surface and we'll be able to look at the engine and say aha! In a week or so I'll post some more detailed pictures. BTW, who is Carl Schmidt? (somehow I feel like I just opened the door to a big joke)
I just pulled my copy of the savannah races, the guys name was billy knipper (he won the light car race driving a lancia in 1910) i look forward to more pics soon. check your pm's.
You are right there were some 151s used in boats I believe but I would not give up in the auto aspect as they sometimes used them in both to suit the needs or wants of the owner. You may try to find Gordon White's website and email him as he might have run across a Knepper Special and he may have the records. The AAA contest board kept pretty decent records of Drivers (and Mechanics with the two-man eras) and the cars also were registered. Some of the records have been destroyed but some were saved and are available through Gordon White I believe. A big clue would of course be a Knepper Special or of course anything owned by Knepper. I would think that this engine was pre 60's Indy or whatever but he is the only Knepper I have run across so I figured it was a starting place. By the way I have spent years with cars rolling around my head before I finally figured them out-but it feels pretty rewarding when you finally say "I've got It"-just another part of this car disease. You are right on Billy Knipper FB but in my research he kind of dropped off the map-you have me wondering on that now too-thanks a lot. Jim
Better get to work but dug up a bit more on Knepper- I was wrong they raced in Illinois more than likely and not Indiana as I stated earlier. Two brothers Arnie born in 1930 and died of cancer in 1992 and brother Ray born in 1920 and died in 2000. They were born in Belleville Illinois and stayed either there or in Lebanon Ill. until they died from what I found. Probably small town guys that the local papers must have something on them. Worth chasing-Jim Billy Knipper lived a long life until 1968 but I can't find much racing past 1914 although he might have run outlaw too who knows.
Actually I've seen a few using the BS V twin motors. Orange County built a custom bike for a mower company and used one of them. I think they are only 18 hp stock.
this is going to be a tough one for you all to swallow, but i've been gettin into these 60/70's mercedes v-8's lately. some of them are completely aluminum, 3.8's 5.6's 6.3 but the 4.5's have an iron block. THey have overhead cams as well, butthe seventies versions have a real early look to them. (when stripped) The only tough part is they are mostly fuel injected, but the hole patterns aren't extremely difficult to match. Most american cars were autos, but there are manual hookups too. These engines were made for the autobahn so they rev extremely high, the 70 6.3 was made for a 140 mph top speed. One of my next cars will have one in it, probably the '29 roadster.
The guy i would normally call on this just pasted away...so that resource is gone. i have the same issue with Knipper...cant find much past 1914. i found a copy of "midget racing in colorado" by Bill Hill...anybody want it?
As a final thought, I suppose, I ran across that a guy from Belleville Ill named Steve Knepper was inducted into a midget hall of fame in Belleville Ks, I believe around 2000 and he is still racing. If it was my engine I would give him a call, bet he would like to talk about it because it has family heritage. One time in the eighties when I wanted to track down some info on DePalma's old racing team and their racing shop, I looked inthe phonebook with people with the same last name and got a lead to the wife of his old racing partner. I spoke with the daughter and she thought I was some kind of nutcase, but I told her to ask her mother if she wanted to talk about the Detroit Special (her husband's car from the teens) and Ralph DePalma. I talked to her for over an hour that night and a couple of other times. Talked about her trips to Indy and her custom bodied cars and a bunch of stuff-she was in her eighties but loved cars- I cherished that conversation as much as some of the car restoration I've done. People are as much of this hobby as the cars. Jim
soooo, got any more nut job engines...i am trying to find a picture of the Gobron-Brille LSR car from 1902...but no luck yet...
if anyone is up for a really neat one check out this link... v-twin 6 stroke?, well read on: http://www.jack-brabham-engines.com/
since i have been blabbering about the DOHC Peugot engines, here is a cool foot note for the engine. "Les Charlatans" draftsman Ernest Hemry (after the start of ww1) stayed to work with Peugot for the start of the war, though he was ostrazied from the rest of the company for his work on the DOHC racing engine. While he stayed on he worked on the design and built a DOHC v8 based on the DOHC 4. The other engineers with in peugot, shot the design down, saying it would never work. One was built (if i recall it produced about 270 hp)...Hemry left Peugot in disgust. The engineers that destroyed Hemry, went on to design an engine very similar (basically a copy) of Hemry's engine. This engine was submitted for the war effort, but lost out to the SOHC Hispano-Suiza v8, the rest being history. here is what the Hemry v8 looks like
Almost 3 weeks and no posts, so here's a couple more pics. The '17 Caddy V8 has an aluminum crankcase with detachable cylinders. I have a slightly later parts engine that I could use the cylinders off of if I want to run 4 carburetors. The trans and all is there, note it has all 3 pedals included as part of the package. I have put a Dr. Pepper can in two of the pics for scale. This thing is large! It's going to wind up in a '21 Stude Chassis one day. The '37 V8 60 has Eddie Meyers intake and Offenhauser heads. It is the only year for stainless steel sides in the engine block. I have heard some liked 'em for racing because they were lighter. Note the picture where the two engines are together, the Ford is about 12" behind the Cad in that shot.
Here is something that is not at all exotic, but it's the only one I have seen, and nobody else has seen one that I have talked to. (One exception) It is a Busy Bee, all aluminum construction. I did see one one time in a motorscooter with a White nameplate on it. Looked a lot like an early Cushman. If you know more about it, let me know.
At "Back to the 50" in St. Paul last year, a GMC V-12 was on display. Used all internals and heads from the 305 V-6. Was out of a fire engine and was made by GMC. Display was featuring the guys transmission adaptors - and he had one for the V-12 --same as for the V-6. You need to find one for your roadster!
The v12 was used in my area for irrigation engines in the 60's. I ran a fork lift in the 70's that had the v6. The parts supply is virtually non-existent now. Exporters sent those engines and all the 428 Fords to south America several years ago. Even the v12 has little power though. It was a poorly designed engine. GMC pickups in the early 60's had the v6 for an option after the Pontiac v8 was discontinued.
i didn't read this whole thread, but several pages back, a guy metioned the saab/ford v-4. a customer at a shop i used to work at had a saab 400 with one of those motors, and it was pretty bad ass. i think it's be fun to build a light weight roadster and run one of these little fuckers.
Bruce Meyers of Meyers Manx fame built a follow on dune buggy called the Toad. It was powered by a SAAB/Ford V4 adapted to a VW transaxle. They had a lot of scoot. But they did not sell very well.
When my dad was about 14 or 15, he was working in a transmission shop and had to take down a tempest transaxle. All he says is that he is glad that he hasn't had to deal with them since. Anyway, I have read about people using toyota v8 hemis out of limos from the 80's.
There is a guy here in tulsa who has in fact built up a rod with one of those v8 hemis. He had it imported from japan where it had been in a limo. I currently am planning on putting a 4cyl toyota hemi in my track t. Certainly won't be 100 other people at the weekend cruise with one in their rides.
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