I'm rebuilding the front end of a 1959 Rover , new kingpin bushings are needed, complicated somewhat by the original design which is an oil filled reservoir (not grease) which lubricates these bushings, upper and lower, thru oil passages in the kingpin. My question is whether using a replacement oil filled bronze bushing will eliminate the need for oiling from the reservoir - the reason for wanting to get away from the original design is that they tend to leak, there are multiple seals involved etc, and they rust and corrode. From what I have read, these bushings are used in heavy machinery, so a kingpin should be within the limits of use, but hoping someone has some knowledge about this......thanks Pete
Oil impregnated bronze (Oilite) has only half the load carrying capability of common SAE 660 or CDA 932 bronze as is used in kingpin bushings. If you look at http://www.buntingbearings.com/data.html the 932 bronze is near the top of the list and the oil impregnated bronzes are listed as powdered metal further down the list. The P value is the important one in an application like this where the speed of rotation of the shaft within the bearing is essentially zero. P value for 932 is 4000psi while the value is 2000psi for the powder metal sleeve bushings. If your bushings have to be line reamed after installation, that would preclude the use of Oilite bushings. Reaming will smear the surface and close the pores such that the oil can't get to the interior surface of the bushing. Manufacturers of Oilite bushings specifically prohibit honing the bores as grit from the hone will be left in the pores of the inner surface. Can you eliminate the oil reservoir and replace with a grease fitting? Seems like the oil passages already in the kingpins would make this a fairly simple modification, and it would allow you to use the original type bushings with grease rather than risk using Oilite bushings that may not have sufficient load capacity.
Thank you for your response and this gives me some information to work with. My Rover was fitted with grease fittings by an owner and many Rovers were also. This is a bad idea and Rover owners all agree this is why these bushings fail in the first place, unless the oil reservoir goes dry from a leak (rust soon sets in). It would be helpful to know what the pounds force is (in the example is 90 lbs.) , there are two bushings, an upper and lower, a 1 " shaft, very little rotation and each sleeve bushing would be 1 1/2" inches long. The lack of rotation should reduce total PV considerably. There are also upper and lower thrust washers in this installation, which I see have even less load capacity than the powdered sleeve bushing in the chart. I will digest all of this and try to come to some conclusion. Yes I read about the closing of pores on the oilite bushings. The kingpin will have to be machined slightly smaller due to rust so the fit should be good.
They are nuts about those things in England and thousands are still in service, or have been restored. I should think the English experts solved this problem years ago. If they haven't then it suggests the factory setup is as good as it gets, with all its faults. I would do a web search and find the appropriate owner's clubs or specialist repair and restoration people.
Heavy oil is a better lubricant than grease, and the Rover was designed to use heavy oil. In fact before sealed for life ball joints and tie rod ends, this was well known in engineering circles. Cars like Rolls Royce and Lincoln had central lubrication systems with pipes running to every joint. Every 200 miles you pressed a button and a vacuum pump gave every joint a shot of oil. I have one of these units off a Lincoln.
All the parts are available but are super costly. I belong to a forum and they have used my restoration tips in their magazine (apparently although I did not get a copy). This is a problem they haven't found a cheap fix for, and here in America (me Canada) , there are more less costly avenues and I'm just trying to dial one in, if you get my drift. If I can put together a solution, everyone wins.(except the super expensive parts supplier in the U.K.). This is a P4 Rover btw, 50's , not many left in Canada.
I get you. There doesn't seem to be any easy fix. The original setup was a high class suspension for a high class car, and the mess of oil drips was part of the deal. The simplest solution would be better oil seals, if more modern seals or boots will fit (even neoprene O rings, which have solved similar problems on old cars and motorcycles that I know of). Incidentally there was a tip in an old English motoring magazine regarding the central lubrication system on the Rolls. They recommended spreading papers on the garage floor and pushing the button. Then you could see by the oil drips on the paper, whether the system was working and every point was getting oil. I take from this that the front end was always covered in grease and dirt.
we use standard bronze with grease on semis and they last forever with proper greasing ( every 3-6K mi or 3 months if it sits as the oil seperates out of the soap ) its when you do not grease it wears . as for oillite bushings they do not like pounding or vibration they turn to dust if you put a impact on them . and suspensions take many impacts and vibrations , IMO go back to the factory bronze , the English over engineer everything ( except for Lucas ) so there design should work real good. the oil system IMo would be superior due to the constant flushing of dirt from the joint .
why is grease ok for most vehicle king pins, but isn't a good idea for rover, or roll royce? cold beer seams to work fine here.
=============== If you post some dimensions and pictures of your suspension layout I'd give it a shot. Inches please.
Many years ago I had a '65 Chevy van with straight axle/kingpins. The replacement kingpin bushings were plastic. Seems that Chevy wasn't too worried about load bearing capacity.
That depends on the application. It is actually oil in grease (grease is about 90% oil) that does the lubricating, the oil is suspended in a thickener that releases the oil when needed then takes it back up and suspends it again. Grease is used specifically because of the difficulty in getting oil to certain applications, and keeping it there once you do. Grease also helps to seal the bearing to prevent ingress of contaminants. And grease can be fortified with solid lubricants (i.e. moly / graphite) to provide additional load carrying and protection against wear. I don't know about this application, maybe the oil system is better, just addressing the blanket statement that oil is better than great, taint necessarily so. Out of curiosity I would like to know why grease doesn't work so well in these bushings, it tends to be pretty effective for plain type bearings in general, and obviously has worked in the same type of application here for decades.
Found this illustration of Rover P4 suspension. This was an English luxury car of the fifties. Notice that the stub axle is held in place by bronze bushes, but rotates on a ball bearing. You can see why oil would be preferable in this case and why grease would not get to all parts.
Here is the layout. The oil sits in the reservoir above the top bushing, there is a small hole in the middle of the pin that feeds the lower bushing, but grease cannot be forced down it and the lower bushing wears out when grease is used, hence the problem. I don't think finding seals will be a problem for this, but the wear on the pins pose a problem and I will have to turn it down to a smaller size to get a good true surface, so , all of this would be a step easier if I didn't have to worry about the oiling with an oil impregnated bushing. Bottom bushing , originally O.D. 1 and 3/16" I.D. 1" which will finish to 15/16" and I have found a non oil impregnated sleeve at that size,and will use a thrust washer for the flange, all cheap at under 7 bucks. Don't have the O.D. of the top but I believe it to also be O.D. 1 and 3/16" with a smaller I.D. of 7/8" but may need a 13/16" if I clean up that surface also. Thrust washer at 1/16" per bushing. I know it would be easier to get the wallet out and buy all new parts, the way the dollar is these days converted to pounds, probably close to 600 bucks or more with new pins for both. I've got all winter so was hoping to figure this out on my own terms...Thank you for all the input!
Couldn't you put a zerk in the bottom cap (#7) to lube the lower bushing; also need to cut grease grooves in your bushings like there are on regular greased bushings.
Wondered if the bushes #2 &3 carried the spindle loads (impacts?). I was thinking about converting to a "Ford" configuration, w/a sealed bearing and shim beneath, and a spacer above? Then grease might work. Depends upon loads, matls. and dimensions.
Any industrial bearing shop should have loose ball bearings, seals of all kinds, and bronze bushings. Not so sure about the bearing races but you could ask. The bushings may need to be made by a machine shop. Or maybe you can sleeve the ones you have. I have gotten bearings and seals for obsolete English and European cars, as long as they are a standard size any good bearing shop has them or can get them. It is best to take the old parts along, and go to the shop in person. If there is a number on the parts, so much the better.
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