I'm reluctant to post on this topic because discussing oil with gearheads is like discussing religion or politics with anyone else. It's a very emotional subject & brand loyalties often defy common sense. I'm not here to start a debate, I just want to share my experience. Take it for what it is - a single data point out of millions. Deep Background - For years, I swore by Kendall straight weights for my hi-po OHV engines. I'd run a Kendall multi-weight when I was in a bind & couldn't find any straight weight, but by & large, I was a devoted Kendall proponent. I still believe Kendall is the best mineral-based oil out there, but like I said - it's like religion & politics! After much research, I switched to synthetics for my daily drivers. Typically, I use Mobil-1 for the modern engines in the wife's car & on the odd occasion I have a newer car as a daily. Fast-forward to recently & Kendall is hard to find locally. For my flathead, I ran Mobil-1 15-50 for the 2000 mile trek, but then switched to Valvolene/Castrol 20-50 - good name-brand oils with decent reputations. My flathead, when hot, would run about 35psi at cruise, but drop to near zero at hot idle. This is a fresh engine, not built by me & I'm firmly sticking my head in the sand on this issue & choosing to believe it's probably a poor fitting pump-to-block issue as discovered by Ol' Ron & discussed here by Bruce Lancaster a couple years ago. More background - For the past two-three years, I've been following the discussions regarding oil reformulation for EPA & mileage concerns. To distill these long discussions - the major concern is the reduction of zinc as it applies to the sliding friction found in flat-tappet cam-equipped engines. Modern engines are nearly all roller lifter equipped, so not an issue. There are numerous stories of wiped out cams, which break-in additive to use, etc - that's not the subject of this thread. Now a flathead doesn't have the spring pressures an OHV engine does, so I wasn't overly concerned about the reduced zinc. I've always felt, despite my allegiance to Kendall, that oil brand didn't matter so much as religiously changing it & doing whatever to keep it clean (full-flow filter, PCV systems, etc.). I change my oil every 1K miles on my flathead with it's stock tiny-bit-of-flow canister filter. Nevertheless, something I read in one of the many articles somewhere referenced viscosity stability in the reduced zinc formula oils everyone is running now. This seemed to be overshadowed by the concern for the zinc & I only read about this once or twice, but it lodged in my brain for some reason. Fast forward to last week - I was at Costco & they had a good deal on Chevron Delo 400 15-40 Diesel Oil. Now, if you've been following the oil discussions, you know Chevron Delo & Shell Rotella are typically touted as the only oils still with zinc in them in the same amount as a few years ago. So I bought some & changed my oil this weekend because it was due (1021 miles). Yesterday was the first day driving in traffic & doing my normal commute. Here's what I noticed - my cruise pressure dropped ever so slightly from about 35psi to 32psi, but my hot idle increased from damn near zero to 10-12psi! This, with a lower viscosity oil than I had been running (15-40 v 20-50). So maybe there's something to that viscosity stability blurb in some of that stuff I read after all. I pass this info on as throughout these discussions, you rarely see any before & after data. Most of the posts result in things like, "I've been using Brand-X for 20 years & 100,000 miles & my engine is fine" or whatever (see first paragraph re: religion & politics). I'm also not claiming that this proves anything or that someone else will have the same experience. As mentioned, I provide it merely as a single data point out of millions (that are typically unavailable). I would be interested in hearing from other folks who made the switch regarding their before & after experience. I don't want to delve into the politics/religion aspect of this... Discuss amongst yourselves...
Interesting. A lot to read, but interesting. I'd also like to hear some other experiences. Maybe some one who is close to an oil change would volunteer to try some 15-40 Chevron and report the results.
Accidentally put Pennzoil in a Honda XR80 once when changing the oil (I was a kid).....damn motor rattled like crazy, thought it was gonna blow. Looked in the owners manual and it plainly stated 'do not use Pennzoil'.....changed the oil with Valvoline and it was fine again..... I'll be changing my oil this weekend in my pickup, but I've been using Delo since the whole 'flattened cam/lifter' fiasco.......
I don't get hung up on oil brands too much, I run straight weight in everything but my winter daily driver.I have heard for years the good and the bad oils but it seems they all have their fans. I don't believe oil pressure has much to do with reliability or longivity of a engine.Some oils (like synthetics) are better at drawing heat away from engine parts and therefore may be running lower pressures than ones who do not transfer heat well. Our drag cars will run 20 to 30 degrees higher oil temps with synthetics,does this make any parts last longer ,I don't know.Most of the time they run 0 oil pressure at idle. The synthetics seem to find weaknesses and leak easier also.
I tried putting 10-30 synthetic in a lawnmower, same experience, had to run plain old dinosaur oil. Thanks for posting interesting information Ernie, very interesting. My rides use synthetic solely on my experience that it reduces bearing rattle on cold-morning startup. One question nobody can answer........OK, so removing zinc is a big deal. What about synthetics, does it apply to them too? Ernie's data point here is the closest I've found to an answer, maybe it does matter
Last I read is that the "diesel" oils will also be forced to reduce "zinc" starting in 2007. Reducing doesn't mean eliminating it - at least not yet!!! I also recall that some of the "racing oils" still have the precious zinc that keeps our flat tappets alive. Food for thought - Shell Rotella (and the others) are formulated to protect 30 thousand dollar engines. Guys who service these fleets have quite an investment - I think that's a fairly good testament right there. Personal experience - my 392 hemi (in my truck) had sat for many many years - first couple years - it would have a valve tick for a few seconds at start up after setting over winter. When I first got it - it was worse so I ran a quart of ATF in it for a week of driving and it seemed to quiet it down, but each spring - tick tick tick..... After running Rotella the motor has sounded BETTER and BETTER - this spring - no ticks - nada. Is this strictly a result of the Rotella - I couldn't say for certain, but I attribute it to that. It could surely be debated - I won't argue that. For the moment I won't take a chance on the "lesser" oils. Diesel oil just make sense to me for our old motors given the other choices. YMMV
My oil experience is related to "true" synthetics vs what I call "store bought" versions. I read a test article about Red Line, Torco, Amsoil, And Mobil 1 for synth's and Kendall straight wt for mineral oil. What I reall is that the baseline with the Kendall was like 1090hp in the test engine. Mobil 1 dropped the hp rating by 7 or 8. Torco was the best at a bit over 1100 and Amsoil and Red Line were just 1 or 2 behind. The reasons were believed to be how they package the formulas and whether or not it was a true synthetic oil vs a mineral oil with a synthetic "stock" or formula package. Now my experience with Amsoil was as follows. I ran Kendall "Nitro 50" in my bracket racer. Pressure was never an issue but it was like 35-40 at hot idle. This was a fresh motor and always needed a qt added every 3rd weekend or about 15-18 passes. After a total of about 60 passes on the motor I switched to Amsoil race oil, 20-50 if memory serves. It quit using that qt, warmed up quicker, had 45-50psi hot idle, and always, ALWAYS, looked as new as the day it went in. 60 passes again and I added a qt after the filter change. The other thing was that car picked up 2mph and ran .05 quicker on average in all similar conditions that were logged. On a cam change and tear down the bearings looked no more than a week old...after a total of 364 passes with trap rpms of 7800! My take on it? It freakin works and works well. I use Amsoil in my sleds as well but 2 stroke stuff is a bit removed from this topic. Safe to say I see no undue wear on machines that I beat like they owe me money. Torco has an additive that they call "MPZ" which is their zinc package for long life. The thing to consider is where it's needed and what are you doing. For a hot rod motor or recreational vehicle I'm sold on true synthetics with the right additives including zinc. I can't see the zinc as harmful as long as it stays in the motor and since "true" synthetics don't burn off like mineral based oils it should not be an issue. Also on Mobil 1, the plasticizers(sp?) used for maintaining viscosity are the reason that it takes a litlle hp away vs the other brands. I'm no scientist but I'm happy with my results.
I work in this field.....Delo and Rotella are the most popular brands sold at local parts stores, Wal-Mart...etc.....that's why everyone says to use it. But there are alot of other high quality diesel oils available if you can find a local oil distributer in your area that'll sell to the public......and it may even be cheaper that the parts store in some cases..... Sounds like you've got bigger problems....ie: Mains....
Here's something else I've wondered. Is the viscosity classification test uniform and meaningful, or is one manufacturers 10-30 another manufacturers 15-40? (from an applied performance standpoint) I work in aerospace and deal with all kinds of national standards and those who really understand that stuff could drive an 18-wheeler thru loopholes in em. Either by building a defective product that meets specification only at the measured points, or by exploiting weakness in the measurement system. Obviously, oil can meet the industry's highest standards and still be junk for flat tappet cams. I suspect either the classification tests are loose, or the criteria they've established are not representative of actual performance.
Kind of funny this subject came up, I was just discussing it with the guy that did the machine work on my 235. I've seen the debate over the reduction of zinc in the current oils supposedly causing cam failure, and it's been debated to death on most sites Iv'e been on. Seems the same answer comes up-Run rotella T or your cam'll fail. But something that you'll notice is that it seems to only be aftermarket cams, and then supposed "performance" cams, that are failing most. My own theory, and my machinist agrees, is that there's some poor quality or improperly manufactured cams going out, and the makers are just trying not to own up to their own mistakes. It's easy for them to just say "It's the oil" than to admit they made faulty product. I personally think that the makers relied too much on a given additive, rather that make the product better. In other words, they got sloppy. Think about this-If it is true that the oil is what's making he flat tappet cams fail, then wouldn't there be a huge rash of vehicles made before roller cams with engine/cam failures? Something you gotta remember is that if they take out an additive, zinc in this case, they'll put in something else that will do the same job. I also think it's odd that there's no opinion on synthetic oils, that most likely have no zinc in them, or any of the aftermarket additives, such as Lucal Oil treatment. Until I hear a definate "this is the real problem", I'm going to stick with the Valvoline 30 wt Super HPO that I've been using, got a big stash of it, so I'm set for a while.
Most of what I've read concerning the Zinc issue seems to be dealing with aftermarket cams also. Anyone have more insight into that? I also know this topic has been beat but running no oil filter I hope there is alot of knowledged posted here even if you have to repeat yourself. I could search but I figure there are some that have been updating their knowledge since all this "new" info has been coming out.
Havent seen anything on how reduced the '07 oil is supposed to be, or how it compares to current or "made in the '80s" car oil. It has been said that the "good" diesel oil has a 4 or 4+ rate. What is the new '07 oil rate? I saw some Castrol diesel oil today that said it was OK for the new '07 & the older engines, it had the 4 & 4+ rate on it. How do we tell new from old?
Save your money, oil doesn't do much and what the gauges read don't tell you much except when they read zero. Oil is a fluid, and this fluid under pressure is what takes friction off the crank, cam etc. Thats why engines die when they have oil, but not under pressure. Next the oil drains heat out, and it's good at that. People who polish the inside of the engine or use too much paint can have localized overheating problems. Incidently how slippery the oil is not under pressure is the least important thing the oil is used for.
I run Mobil 1 in everything we own. I started using it some years ago after it cured my "cold cam chain" noise in my commuter car. I took my brand new HHR off the transport truck with 6 miles on it and filled it with Mobil 1 right then. We started Flower's nice freshly built 8BA on it (Mobil 1) and now with over 8,000 miles it is doing well, not leaking, not burning any (she says it was the expert engine builder, not the oil). I guess we'll just stick to it unless something happens to change my thinking.
The daily driver pick-ups(diesel) get Chevron delo 400,the bonneville car(big block caddy) gets 15w-40 Rotella T,The 1970 coop de ville gets 15w40 rotella T as will the 56 coop when it hits the road,The detroit in the bus gets 40 w rotellaT,the dirt bikes get castrol 20w-50. When an engine is up to temp on a hot summers day its a pretty good test of an oils viscosity idling or cruising.
Amzoil in every thing around here. I use the weight specified my the engine maker. I have had 300I Fords run 250,000 trouble free miles. Ran Mobile 1 one in my race cars, cost me a very expensive engine. crank broke due to bearing failure.
Big Pete, The thing I think you are skipping over is the extremely high pressure the edge of your lifter sees as it rides up/down your cam lobes - oil pressur eain't gonna do squat here. Instead we are relyign on the "residual" effects of the lubricant - slippery = good. I don't think anyone is saying that the reduced "zinc" in the "new" oils is resulting in bearing type failures - at least I haven't heard that.
Covich distributors in Seattle says Delo 400 no longer has the zinc additive. Use EOS from GM dealers for flat tappet cam break-in, it's loaded with zinc. Costs about $12 a quart, though!!
Seems to me that cams and lifters should never actually touch each other. There should always be a thin layer of oil between them. Two like metals have very low realative frictions against each other. Add a thin layer of oil and that low friction gets lower. Take the oil away (completely) and you get much higher fricton which is just heat and wear and eventual failure. This is basic physics. My suspicion is low or no oil pressure is the true culpret. Break in with teh recommened additives and make sure you always have proper oil pressure. As for high valve spring rates..I would think using the lightest weight springs (i.e. spring tension not actual weight) you can that still control the action is the best option. Haven't we known for years that high lift, agressive cams require high spring rates? Why do street cars need .600" lift? They don't in my opinion.
I use shell rotella t in a hi-performance ford 390 fe.I use 15-40 and only drive it from may-nov due to shitty weinter weather.Oh the car is a 62 ford galaxie.Mike
With the price of oil [Rotella], now days, I've been using WalMart "SuperTech" synthetic in some of my stuff. Only costs about 4-5 bucks more a gallon, but you have the advantage of extended oil change intervals. Anyone know anything about Supertech syn oil? I dont use it in my hipo stuff yet, but I am thinking about it.
A question for those in the oil formulation business. Exactly what is multi-grade oil made from?? polymers? Why does a multigrade oil (lose) oil pressure when the engine heats up if its suppose to increase in viscosity??? If I take two straight weights, 20 and 50 weight for example, and put them in the same engine do I have a multigrade 20w50. Or do I have a 35 Weight??? Finally.... When I take any multigrade oil 10w40 for example and a straight 40 weight.... Heat them both on the stove regulating the temp with a thermometer.... Next I pour these oils out and watch the thickness properties. The multigrade has the viscosity of maple syrup and the straight weight has the viscosity of Mrs. Butterworths?? I am sticking to straight weights regardless of what the chemists say.
In theory I would agree, but in reality we all know that cams and lifters DO WEAR so that reailty suggests that they do indeed touch one another. I would also suppose that the majority of this "actual contact" occurs during start-up prior to the oil from being splashed around. Since no motor I ever took apart had any direct pressure directed at the cam/lifter interface it would suggest that the cam lobes are being lubricated from the "splash" most likely from the crank/rods. This would further suggest that highy baffled motors (windage trays) could actually accelerate cam wear. This leads me to the one negative thing I have heard/read about synthetic oils - and that is that they are so "slippery" that over time they tend to nearly completely drip off all those internal surfaces. From what I read on synthetics - they are hard to beat in terms of actual lubricity qualities, but this (dripping off) does sound like a viable concern IF you store your motor for extended periods of time. How long?? I dunno - maybe one of the oil experts will chime in. Back to tjm73's post.....so while I agree with what you say (in part) I would suggest that it only applies AFTER all the oil is flowing. Unfortunately we cannot assume the oil is always in the desired place. So back to your physics comment - what do you think the load in PSI is at the edge of the lifter??? Do you think we really can assume it always has the precious film of oil on it - even during start-up? I guess my point is that it is really more complicated than I (we?) understand- and THAT's why oil's are different for various pieces of equipment - not an easy topic to disect.
interesting thread - lots of good discussion, and none of the 'your oil sux' stuff that goes on at other boards. there are two design conditions oil has to be formulated for - max pressure (at the contact point between two components) and max temperature. Max temp on most every engine occurs on the stem of the exhaust valve near the valve pocket. Only exception to this is a turbo; the oil jacket on a turbo can see higher temps than the exhaust valve stem. the other point is the point of contact on the lifter in a flat tappet motor. Yes - modern engines have roller cams (mostly) so the extreme pressure of a lifter riding the cam isn't as critical in a modern motor. Bearings (cam, main, and journal) all receive oil under pressure, creating a hydrodynamic cushion. It's this cushion that protects the bearing and journal over time, and is a function of oil pressure. onto the oils themselves: synth is a long chain molecule that is artificially built up; the chains are more uniform, and the fluid has a flatter viscosity vs. temp curve than dino oil. synth also has better heat resistance - the prime reason why you don't see sludge buildup inna synth motor. I switched to synth back in the 80's on almost everything I run, as the synth protected the turbos I was runnin' at the time better than dino oil. Exceptions? My old-style motors still run dino oil, primarily because it doesn't seep like synth. I don't like leaks; synth will seep more readily than dino oil - that's a fact. finally - whether it's dino oil or synth - modern oil formulations require a wetting agent to 'stick' to metal. Animal fat-based oils, used in early, early motors with total loss lubrication would chemically 'bond' with metal surfaces above 140 deg. F; if you've ever worked inna fast food kitchen and felt how slimy the SS prep tables were after sanitizing - you know what I'm talking about. I've been tempted (but not yet brave enough) to throw a qt of castor oil into a motor to 'prime' the surface for lubrication, as castor oil supposedly bonds with metal; thus reducing the wear characteristic associated with oils devoid of ZDDT additive. dunno if this helps...
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