Ray, I would say that "I" do what the voices in my head tell me, but the truth of the matter is that there just isn't than much time.
Hey 42, the argument about using the same amount of money and making a v8 car faster is old school, so I guess it is appropriate for this site. A little knowledge and ingenuity can more than make up for cash. I know this isn't a six but just an example of what can be done on the cheap with parts from the junk yard. Give this guy the money it cost to build your big block and most v8's would be embarrassed. And this car was built 14 years ago. http://pintopage.fordpinto.com/Poisonous Pinto.htm <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3EqAJkuNrvs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Hay. man i like all engines 4 6 or 8 10 &12 .I just think everything has been done to a V8 that you can do be it GM Ford or Chrysler. People dont look at moters any more, But when thay see & hear a Bult up 6 banger thats different. Its more challing to make a 6 go. GOOD luck & God bless
For me, there are all kinds of factors... on top of not being strictly an inliner...for me, just about every kind of engine out there has a potential cool application. [*]The first factor for my appreciation of inliners is that is where I got my hands on start. Vintage British sports cars....MGs, Austins, Triumphs, etc. All with very capable for their application, and fun inliners. [*]I have always been a HUGE fan of not following the crowd. I want to do something different, and these days the crowd is Big-3 V8s [*]My racing days are 30+ years in the past. I don't care who's car is faster on a track...I want something that is fun to drive to the store, or take a cruise in the countryside. [*]More and more I cringe when I see old cars that are practically restorable cut up for shoehorning in the owner's favorite flavor V8. Of course it's theirs to do as they please, but it's not for me. [*]My preference these days is to update an old car to make it a safe driver on today's roads, while doing as little irrevocable damage as possible. In many cases, that means an inliner When it's all said and done, it comes down to what trips the owner's trigger....be it inline, V, a boxer, rotary, or I suppose someday electric.
I like my ford 300 six and my dodge 225 slant six. Ive taken many of (performance V8's) in a race and beat them and my engines are stock. If you know a good machine shop it doesn't cost much to build up a six. But that's just me
We do this JUST to piss off all the V8 guys!! My opinion on this topic is sure bang for buck, you'll spend less building a SBC, but it's just too boring. Even a blown SBC won't look like a blown 302 jimmy. Here's mine:
Only one mention of Hudsons in this entire thread! The 308 Twin-"H" flathead Six was legendary in NA$CAR for nearly six years, and dirt track racing for over 15 years! Nothing could touch it in the early days of NA$CAR- not the early Chrysler Hemis, Cadillacs, Oldsmobiles, Buicks, and certainly not the Chevys! The only reason Hudson was getting beat in 1955 is because the new '55 Chrysler C300 was a killer on the track, and the Chevy V-8 started appearing. Plus, Hudson's merger with Nash to form AMC in May 1954 did not help things, either! I'm putting a Chevy 292 in my '46 Hudson sedan. It's not intended to race, just drive. But, it's gonna look and sound friggin' magnificent with that Stovebolt Six!
> OK, why, an inliner? To inline, or not, is the question. If you must ask, you never understand the answer.
The Hudson won the Nascar Championship for three years,before that it was Olds for two and 54 and later was Chrysler for three then Chevy in 57.The Hudson was a far better handing car on the Nascar dirt tracks used back then and Hudson was quicker to make available "racing parts"
Why an Inline? 1. Reliable 2. Different 3. That's what it came with 4. Rap the pipes The 223 in my Ford is getting tired and will eventually get a y-block but right now still runs like a champ. My C-10 still sports it's low mile 235 and will keep it, more an issue of keeping it stock because I'll eventually sell it when I finish the resto. Drive what you like, like what you drive.
Scot, Maybe that you were born in the 70's and developed a certain view of in-line six's, narrows your opinion? First of all, it's not a case of underpower, nor is it about dollars per horsepower. Sure, big, muscle-car, [actually over] powerful-engine technology is a valid, challenging, competitive pursuit. I'll grant you that without quarrel. Builders of big motors in magnificent hot rods are to be admired. However, the in-line six's, which for many street rods of their day, have a nostalgia and a challenge all their own, in no way are or ever were intented to compete with the mighty V8. Like the guy who climbs the mountain 'cause "it's there" the challenge of re-creating an in-line six which "was there" in some truly art-deco, American [mild] custom of period correct vintage, it represents a challenge of performance all it's own. Instead of competing with a V8, we compete with maximum performance in a particular class - we don't think of it as apples to oranges if you will. Not everyone in this hobby is in a chase for so many seconds per quarter Scot. Some of us are quite content with the unique rap of a six, in a nice old Chevy [for example] that brings us back to an America - before your time with due respect - when driving our custom down the avenue was better than cell phones, at a time when the music was innocent, life was simpler, cool cars were everything, girls who were happy just being girls and drive in movies preceded drugs, social protests and quotas. There's a whole new resurgence now recently growing for inliners. They have a website and a following for keeping something classic and simple alive. I don't presume to change your passions for big blocks but do suggest you open your mind a little. In case you haven't noticed the individualism and creativity of the entire hot-rod hobby allows for each of us to express our hearts and souls in unique ways. I had a project for 28 years with a small block V8 - I got so fed up with people asking me why I didn't have a big block - I actually came to recognize a whole new world. I now have never been happier than I am with my little 6 hot rod. Al
Good post Al, I'm really not as closed minded as you think, I was just asking an honest question, which is why? I've heard a ton of different answers, yours being another excellent one. And your right, due to the gas crunch, the smogger motors of the time, how horribly slow 6's were of this period due to mileage and smog, I really was ruined on them forever. I had an older brother that starting building fast cars when I was a kid, I think he is the other reason I am ruined on 6's. I learned to drive a stick shift at 14 years old in a 13 second camaro, small block and a muncie m22 haha. I really do think this thread has turned out pretty cool, I should start another one and title it "Why the small block chevy" Can you imagine the shit storm? Scot
A dumb but serious question, what is the absolute smoothest inliner, 4, 5, 6 or 8? I've heard of 4 bangers with counter rotating shafts to dampen vibrations, so I guess they aren't so smooth, eh? Just wondering, Gary PS... dig the pyramid air cleaners. Do you get better mileage with them?
Thanks Al, for taking the time to post this. You put into words well, how a lot of us feel about the subject. Since I was a kid, there was only the question: Why driving and owning something newer than the early 50s ? Whatever make or engine size. I ended up with a straight 6 in a Chevy Truck as my first car, which I still drive today. I didn't care about whatever engine design at all at the time, but loved the simplicity of the one I had and that I could teach myself how to work on it with the help of just the manual and few simple tools. I don't consider myself an 'inliner' - just somebody who likes early cars and whatever engine they came with. I talk about my rides with people almost every time I park it somewhere and they just walk up. I often proudly mention that they are mostly stock with a straight 6 and sometimes lift up the hood for the knowledgable ones. And interestingly the most heard comment, especially over the last 10 years, from those who also owned my rides in the past, has been: I should have kept mine stock without cutting it up ... Some told me there was a trend in the 70s and 80s to upgrade the drive train and suspension with up to date parts and installing small blocks. I always laugh and tell them, that trend is still alive and well today.
thats hard to answer. era? carb or fuel injection? technology? displacement? power? how its mounted? lots of factors.
Straight six engines are naturally balanced, same with V-12 and opposed fours. Most 4-bangers tend to be internally balanced since there is less mass needed but they do develop a nasty second order vibration when they get into larger displacement. Most manufacturers keep them under 2.5 litres for that reason. The Pontiac 151 is a good example. They're not bas as a stock 2.4 litre but when Mercruiser turned them into a 3.0, they shake pretty bad. I've played with a lot of 4-cylinder motors, I've always thought that when you add the weight of a pair of balance shafts, chains, sprockets and all that extra rotating mass inside the engine, you've just lost all the advantage of the increase in displacement. Shawn
570 to the ground, add about 30% for drivetrain parasitic losses, guessing cause I don't know ANYTHING about the drivetrain, LOL. But 30% will usually get you in the ballpark. That's like 741 H.P. at the crank. Holy aunt jemima!
Smoothest inline motor.... BMW 330Ci 6 This engine is mad smooth, hardly tell when its running. Acceleration is effortless, lots of power and torque. Look it up, its a bad mofo.
Thanx Shawn, just what I needed. As much as I like DOHC I-4s, I've been thinking of a high tech I-6, perhaps from an Euro or Japanese car. One with a "slant" would be cool with a cross flow head. But, I have a turbo Ecotec 2.0 in my HHR SS and I love it. Seems smooth to me. As are all those I-4 bike and small displacement formula car engines. Gary
its a manual transmission, in a BMW M3 (3.2 liter)...... regardless, i bet drivetrain losses are maybe 15 percent, so its probably around 650-680 at the crank, but yea it moves a BMW N74 V12 is so smooth, you can balance a nickle on edge on its engine cover. i work on BMW's for a living BTW
BMW's have been making 6 cylinders forever- but all of them are fuel injected to some sort. either old old with mechanical injection, or newer with electronics. you could carb it to make it really easy, but would loose the smooth running i think. you could put a standalone ECU like mega squirt or something but thats complicated normally
The big BMW slant-six was introduced in 1968 with two Solex 35/40 INAT carbs. I'm not sure if that got to the USA, at least in that form. Injection followed three years later. Carb versions remained available throughout the '70s, though, in Europe at least. This was after a decade without a six in the line-up. It shared a lot of basic architecture with the slant-four introduced in the 1500 in 1962, and as the early sixes had much the same look as the early fours it could, at a bit of a stretch, be claimed to be traditional That Teutonic bulbousness has a fair amount of trad-potential.
as far as i know- no six cylinder carb'ed BMW's made it to the states. now, i have worked on a few M10's and other old 4 cylinders with carbs, but those thing shake like a meth addict coming off a 3 day binge.
One of these 6 cylinder threads had a VERY unusual picture of a 250 or 292 chevy--with a crossflow head. It had carbon fiber airhorns/throttlebodies on the passenger side of the head--Ive been looking back thru all the threads but cannot find it. i think I was looing at info about 302 gmcs, But I could have sworn the three pics-with the middle one was on this thread-does anyone know where this pic is? thanks
All the BMW sixes that came to the US between 1968 & 1974 where equipped with a dual carb setup. These are fantastic SOHC engines...super smooth & gobs of torque! The US finally got fuel injection in 1975.
I'm thinking an older BMW 6 like this would be my #2 engine choice for a 50's special (#1 in the non-supercharged category). But if I could find a cheap (ha ha!) Kugelfischer injection for it it would be #1 fer sure. 3rd would be the Pontiac I-6, which is an OHC I think. Still, there's plent of room on the bucket list of motors. Gary
Just one little note, as everything has been said already i guess. A good saounding engine, be it loud or louder, doesnt need to be quick. Sound is just that, sound. Ive seen quite engines go lighning fast. A good soundin 4 or 6 w/ split headers and glasspacks doesnt necessarly have to be fast.
I was wondering about split manifolds on fours the other day. I wonder how much actual scavenge loss one would have with something like a 3-1 split. And what it would sound like. I know one popular format for a tube header on the original (i.e. real) Mini was the LCB or Long Centre Branch, which collected primaries from the end cylinders in one branch and had another branch straight from the siamesed centre port. The branches were eventually collected into a single exhaust pipe, so it isn't really a split manifold but rather a tri-Y arrangement. The Alfasud had a tubular tri-Y underneath its flat-4 engine. I wonder what either of these would sound like without the final Y, and two pipes instead. Both had quite a distinctive highish-pitched rasp as they were. Then, what about a 2-3 split on an Audi 5-cylinder? Those things have the same sort of deep rumble you get on a V10. You almost feel it more than you hear it.
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