Olds 303/324 rocker oiling again...

I think I've got this right. Timing of the oil supply is at the # 2 and #4 cam bearings. Holes in the cam line up with holes in the block (through the bearings) and give a squirt of oil to the deck. If you've got the right head gasket (important!) oil goes through the head to the rocker stand and into the shaft. Then the oil stream is timed again when the little holes in the rocker line up with the shaft holes. It sure looks that way to me. If that's the case it's no wonder there's so little oil up top.
Now, that brings up another question. Would it be beneficial to cut a groove in the rocker shaft where each rocker runs? Seems like it would help.

Wonder why the Olds engineers came up with this system in the first place? Were they worried about flooding the valve guides/seals?

Sorry if this is turning into a stream of consciousness ramble. Rainy day in Seattle.

 

oops-F&J beat me to it. His explanation is a little clearer than mine.

Here's another thing relating to oiling- it is possible to get the distributor in far enough for the cam to turn it and run the engine, but not quite enough to turn the oil pump. Make sure it's seated all the way or zero oil pressure!

 

I will be rebuilding a 303 soon and have been trying to learn everything I can.


To take a long shot, I have heard horror stories that there is an internal plug in the oil circuit that is too often missed when early Rockets are re***embled after rebuilds. Without the plug, there is no pressure to some parts of the engine. Has anybody else heard this?


I have also read something, I think on this board, that 303 and 324 engines send oil to the heads differently and the head gasket needs to match the head, not the block. Has anybody else heard that?

Thanks.

 

My Dad ran a shop in the 50s. I remember him always talking about many types of OHV 6 with sludge-plugged drain back holes in the head, on cars that smoked badly...so maybe you are right.

That's the screw-in hex plug with a jet hole, aimed at the timing chain. If that is left out, it would be a huge internal oil pressure loss.





Ok, still thinking about the timed oil holes in the block/cam. I did not measure the exact angle of the two cam holes. They don't appear to be 120 degrees, but if they had been designed originally in 1949 for 120 degrees in the block, then a 3rd hole drilled in the cam would have increased oil by 3X?

So, can you modify the block bore and bearing to have those two holes very slightly oblonged, so that they can now be 120 degrees, and then drill the 3rd hole in the cam journal?

 

Looking at an old Motors manual they show the right head getting oil from # 4 cam bearing and the left from #2. If both heads are getting the same amount I'd say your OK. They also talk about lifters being over sized from the factory seems like lifters in .001-.002-.003 over size were used. It said that the over sized lifters and the block were marked the block on the valley pan rail.

 

[/QUOTE]That's the screw-in hex plug with a jet hole, aimed at the timing chain. If that is left out, it would be a huge internal oil pressure loss.[/QUOTE]


Everybody remembers the 2 plugs in the front of the engine behind the timing gear......it's the one that needs installed inside, behind the small soft plug, in the back of the block , that everybody forgets.
It's at the end of the lifter bank in line with the distributor and also weeps a little oil on the gear
I get 1-2 calls a wk about this one

Tony

 

Ok then, I found my angle finder and my gl***es...

Take a look; the (1956 324) 2 cam journal holes sure do look like 120 degrees apart..

so, I need to ask, if Olds knew they had an oiling problem, with all the changes to rockers and cam...why did they not choose to put a third hole in the journal? That would allow the feed hole to the head, to line up 3 times per cam revolution, compared to just once per revolution? I must be missing something here, because every time I've tried to out think the factory, something proves me wrong.

Any thoughts on doing a 3rd hole?


2nd pic shows a 56 324 rocker and 4 drill holes. The one that goes through the center of the shaft bore is just an access hole so they could drill out the top one to the pushrod tip. That lower access hole does not align with any shaft hole, so it's more or less blocked when installed. But all these holes, compared to the 303 rocker, proves to me that they knew they had a problem with wear, or lack of oil, or whatever. The 56 cam got bigger journals too, so that's more proof. And then they made the cam longer in 57 to get get wider lobes, but as I don't have a 57- cam, I don't know if the journal width was wider.


So....what about the 3rd hole? I must be missing something? because it seems like an easy fix...Too easy, that's why I am asking your opinions.

 

Cam was longer in 59 because the blocks changed length by a 1/4 inch.

49-58 is the same lenght with the journals changing dia in 56

Lobe width changed after the 303's because of lobe wear...nothing to do with upper end oiling

Your working way to hard Frank...call me

Tony

 

Your working way to hard Frank...call me

Tony[/QUOTE]


Call him Frank Tony is a great guy to deal with. I will be intouch

 

Backed off the bolts to the two front rocker stands on driver side, then fired it up, and pried up on the rocker shaft.......and oil flowed out from under the feed stand. 600rpm, no oil pressure gauge on it now, but it did not spray like high pressure.


Time to take the shafts apart, but the whole motor needs cleaning out, so I will keep it as a running car till the body work is done.

 

" Everybody remembers the 2 plugs in the front of the engine behind the timing gear......it's the one that needs installed inside, behind the small soft plug, in the back of the block , that everybody forgets.
It's at the end of the lifter bank in line with the distributor and also weeps a little oil on the gear
I get 1-2 calls a wk about this one"-Tony


Oh great... another thing to lay awake about. The machine shop put in the soft plugs. They knew about the water p***age plugs in the deck and the squirter for the timing gears, so I can hope....

 

re49, I am getting closer to a solution on the piss poor rocker oiling. The more styles of Olds shafts and rockers that I am looking at, the more I think there was one big A-hole in the R&D engine department at Olds. It seems like nobody went to a proper design, and kept modding a very stupid design. Sounds just like one boss with a thick head and ego?

I haven't called Tony yet, cause i'm bashful

...and I'd like to keep a clear slate on what I think is wrong:


I have 2 styles of rocker shaft tubes here, with their different rockers with different amounts of holes.

The 56 shaft has 2 "feeding holes" per rocker, both at the bottom, where the most wear would be. One hole has a diagonal grind groove to get oil over most of the width of the rocker bore hole. Then a straight drill hole slightly above that. Not one of the multiple 56 rocker holes line up with either feed hole.

So, because I had loosened the rocker stands the other day, and saw a reasonable flow of oil come out, I took a 56 ***embly competely apart to clean it like new, and clean/check each hole in the shaft, and each rocker. Yes, I took the end plugs out and cleaned it with a long rod and rag.

I put it back on. The motor has fresh oil and new filter a few days ago. So I sit there running the motor at 1800 for over 5 minutes and nothing! Nowhere, at all. So I figured the rocker shaft tubes must be full, so I shut it off and let it sit for a couple of hours to see if it is some sort of weep system to get oil on the valve tip. Nothing, except for a drop in only 2 of the valve retainers...barely a drop.


So, I took a spare early rocker shaft tube that only has one oil feeding hole per rocker, chucked it in the lathe, then used a cut off wheel to make a 360* very shallow oil groove in the center of each rocker area.

Then I used the 56 rockers. Started it up and had oil in several seconds.. but..I did not plug the one factory drilling access hole on each rocker. That hole does nothing good, and should be plugged. I don't want to ruin these by welding the hole shut, or take a couple hours making steel plugs, but I need to try something.

Now that I have looked at the McGurk oiling system, it would be a perfect match for these grooved shafts. The oil will fill the hollow adjuster screw, and then toss it over the shaft to the valve, just like SBC. I may try the 1.5 McGurks soon.


Right now, there is too much oil, and like Tony warned about flooding the valve area, the rear drains are not going to handle it. So it would build up until it climbed to the higher front drain, and the rear valves will be deep in oil.

 

You say the 56 rockers and stands are not the same.If the feed hole does,nt line up,maybe you should work with the 303 engine parts.If you removed all parts did you replace them in correct order.When i did mine i only did one half then other.The engine i had 1949 303 they oiled ok and was orginal with 108,000 miles.If you were to put a 49 and 56 Rocker arm on one shaft is the any difference,Is the ratio the same or one longer then other.

 

I did some checking,
The rocker arms and stands are the same from 49-51,
52 thru 58 are the same,and the shafts are the same from 1949 to 1958.So your stands are the problem.

 

I had a 58 J2 years ago. I incresed the oil flow to the top when the heads were off by grinding a groove in the deck with a dremmel in the pattern left by the head gasket. That nearly doubled the oil to the rockers on that engine.

 

George; The 56 shaft tube is different than the 53 shaft tube,but only at the oil holes for each spot where a rocker is.

The 56 tube has 2 holes, but both are near the bottom.

The 53 tube has one hole at the bottom.

Both are 1.8 ratio, and because 1.8 tubes are so close to the head bolts, there is a ground notch on the side of the 1.8 tube, to clear the head bolt. So, it can't be put in upside down by mistake from what I can see. And you would not want the oil hole to be more towards the top, because the heavy wearing spot at the bottom needs that oil hole.

I did use 56 rockers on the 56 tubes. The oil holes do not line up during rocker travel. The oil is supposed to come into the rocker bearing surface at the bottom, and magically find it's way up both sides of the tube, to get to the holes 56 rocker body. How can it do that?

The 53 oil hole does not line up with the 53 rocker oil hole either.


Before I ground the 360 degree oil groove on the tube, I tried to think of a way to grind 2 short oil grooves upwards on both sides of the tube, but have them stop at a precise spot. So then when the rocker was all the way up, one rocker oil hole would get oil, while the other hole was shut off, and then when the rocker went all the way down, the other would get oil while shutting the other hole off. WAY too complicated, and I can't machine them to those tolerances.

I will look at the 53 rocker to see if the 360 groove will get oil to the valve tip. That rocker has only one hole I think.. I may put my own hole in if I have to.

The McGurk should work really nice, but those are going on my 55 324 motor with a Crower cam that was made for 1.5 ratios.

 

I am getting good flow from under the rocker stand when I ran it loose.


But it's the misalignment of oil holes that seem to be causing the problem on this motor.


I know a motor needs very little oil at all up there, but there is nothing at all coming out anywhere in the rockers or shafts without that new groove..

Now it's too much, but I will sort it out with maybe a modified 53 rocker on the 56 shaft tube.

 

Do you know for sure what year engine you have or what heads you have.1949thru 1951 uses different stands,52 to 58 are the same.Now the left bank drivers side the 2nd stand from front has a dowel in shaft and oil hole should be under.The right bank is the 3nd stand dowel and hole for oil.If the hole don,t line up you have and early head.**** i just junked a set.Also rocker arms are the same only 49-51

 

Yes, I am all set up with the right stands. I have both types of stands, and the older 1.5 stands can't be swapped by mistake because the pushrods won't line up with the holes in the head.

Yes, that's the side I am experimenting on, and it is the 2nd one back, and oil flows out good when I loosened the first two stands to pry up the shaft a bit.


Since I grooved the shaft itself, I now have plently of oil, just a bit too much because of all the extra holes in the 56 rockers. I think the 53 rocker will work good with the grooved shaft, if I drill one hole to oil where i want it to.

Maybe tommorrow, I will try it.

 

F&J- I think you're on the right track-I came to the same conclusion that the shafts need a groove under the rocker cir***ference. Hadn't done it yet due to Thanksgiving, laziness, etc. Now you say there's too much oil for the rear drain to handle. How big a groove did you cut in the shaft? Does the oil run over the gasket rail when you run the engine with the covers off? Looks to me like the drains are so high up in the head the oil would have to be above the rails to drain. Also if you stick a drill in the drain hole you can see it's closer to horizontal than you'd think it ought to be. I used to think factory engineers with million dollar budgets were smarter than us...hmmm.

 

F&J Do you have a shaft that isn,t touched.
I don,t have a part in front of me so i,m guessing.
The oil hole in head you can see,now the stand that has extra hole is it in line with oil hole.Take wire and make sure it goes in head ok,now the dowel will locate were shaft where it will be.If you have oil it should fill shaft.***emble in order.

 

Here's a quote from 550 Coupe on 9/01/11:

" The early Olds engines were noted for poor oiling up to the rockers. If you've ruled out everything else and you're sure it's the rockers,here's a tip that was p***ed on to me: You will need to dis***emble the rocker ***embly. There are two oil feed holes in the shaft for each rocker. Hold the shaft like you're looking down the barrel of a gun with one hole at 6 o'clock and the other at 8 0'clock. There should already be a groove from 6 to eight . Continue a slight goove from 8 up to 12 o'clock for each rocker. It will feed more oil to your rockers and reduce wear. Now of course inspect everything for wear."


I'm think I'll try that and see what happens. Should have less oil flow than a full circle groove. I'll post results.

 

If these parts came off a know good rocker ***embly there shouldn,t be a problem.Someone over the years may have mixed with other then olds shaft.Did you buy the motor not running.
If shafts are correct the wear should be at bottom.
From what i have found all the shaft are the same 1949 to 1958

 

The 56 rockers have too many holes for a full-circle grooved shaft IMO. Yes, the oil coming down from each rocker starts to pile up at the bottom oil valley by the gasket, and was not hot/thin enough to quickly flow to the back drain, so it goes over the gasket rail. Mine still has the old gasket stuck to the head, and it climbs over that.

The grooves I cut are under 1/16" deep, about the width of a die grinder cutoff disc.

I want to try modding a 53 rocker first, rather than try plugging the "do nothing" spare oil hole on the 56 rocker. I'd almost need to cut down a stock valve cover to know if the drains can get backed up.


On your later reply, you said you will try a partial groove. That sounds good if you can. The shafts are very hardened steel. I have a few paper thin Norton discs that I may try, to get a more consistant groove.

EDIT:

My 56 dual hole shafts do not have a connecting groove between the 2 holes. It does have a diagonal groove on one hole to "spread" the oil sideways.

 

George; The shafts I have are not the same. 53 vs. 56

I don't have any 49-51, but the early 303 ones wouldn't be notched for headbolt clearance, because 1.8's weren't invented yet, and 1.5 shafts don't get anywhere near the headbolts.

Then the 56 shaft has 2 holes at each rocker area, and one hole has an angled grind to oil the entire width of the rocker contact. 53 has one hole.

I don't have any 57-58 shafts to look at.

 

I'm replacing lifters and push rods this morning in my 56 324. Anyone know torque values for the head bolts and other bolt on the rocker ***embly? Also intake manifold?

It has a horrible tick and about 1/8" play on some of the rockers. A few of the lifters are worn concave. Looks like it had different lifters ( chevy maybe?) and home made push rods. The push rods are straight with grounded round ends, no ball on the end, idk? Its about 1/8" shorter set than the new ones I got from Kanter. I cleaned the rocker ***embly well. Hopefully its quiet now.

 

Do a intro or you wont get any help... and start off on the wrong foot, that being said if your lifter is worn on bottom your cam is worn too and you need to change that! Your new lifters will wear right away if you dont.

 

Getting real close to fixing my flow on the 303.....and you get to see how sludged up this motor is

I want to sort this out before rebuilding the motor, in case you wonder why.

I just put the stock 53, one hole, rockers on the rocker shaft tube that I ground the grooves in.

First pic is the motor still running after maybe 3 minutes, and I did go to 2000 rpm to see if the oil from the pushrod end would "flip" over and land on the valve. It does not, and the flow is not squirting out, just a decent amount.

These pics are huge; take a real close look at the very front rocker upper half. You should be able to see a stream of oil coming down on the top edge of the rocker, a half inch long dribble, heading towards the valve, but then drops off the side and misses all of the valve. The 2nd rocker flow goes even farther, but still drips off the blind side where you can't see it.

2nd pic shows motor shut off and an allen wrench in the only exposed hole on the 53 style rocker. Now I bet this all would work perfect, if you grind a shallow groove down that top edge of the rocker from the oil hole, towards the the valve. I know I've seen factory GM rockers like that...maybe old 235 6 Chevys? It does not need much of a groove because once the oil starts in the right direction, it will hit the valve.


There is not too much oil now with a full groove on the shaft tube, but does leak over the gasket with the cover off. I can't see the rear drain not being able to handle the minimal flow I saw, even at higher rpm on highways.


Go back to the other pic I put up showing the many holes on the 56 style rockers...those will not work with a grooved shaft, and, they don't have the hole in the pushrod end tip like the 53 style, so the oil can't get on top of the rocker and drain down towards the valve.

My valve lash noise is almost gone because I had to grind the wear divot out of the rocker tips where the valve stem hits.

 

I just drove the car around the lot for 5 minutes, at operating temp, and had it up to 2500 or so for a few minutes..

Then I pulled the cover, and look at the perfect oil tracks down each rocker to the valve. The oil seemed to stay up on top of the rocker web during driving speeds.

So, no need to modify the rockers with a groove.

I wish I had a junk valve cover to cut a window in, to see how the rear oil drain level is..


I think I would make even a smaller groove in the next rocker tube that I try grooving. I know it could get by with even less oil.

 

Looking good! Now let me get this straight- the rockers in the last pics only have the one hole where the allen key was in the earlier pic? Isn't there a hole on the under side where the pushrod goes? I see how that one hole lubes the valve tip (by running over the top), but what happens at the push rod end?